Virtual RS/PH #21: The Second Coming & The Millenium

Hawkgrrrl Asides, Charity, christ, christianity, church, Culture, curiosity, doubt, eternity, faith, fear, God, Jesus, joseph, LDS, Leaders, love, Mormon, mormon, Mormons, questioning, religion, temple, theology, thought, war 30 Comments

To the teachers out there, sorry if this one is coming a day late and a dollar short.  Our ward is a month behind on these due to Stake & Ward Conferences.  Mea culpa.

Sometimes we forget that the early restored church focused a lot on the millenium, which many of them believed was imminent.  As if they didn’t have enough stress!

This lesson is mostly a compilation of various prophecies about the second coming and the millenium.  Here are the ones specifically referenced in the manual:

  • The Civil War, starting in South Carolina (some might say still going strong in South Carolina)
  • Wars poured out upon all nations (two major world wars plus a host of others – the 20th century has often been called a century of warfare)
  • Famine, plague, earthquakes, thunderbolt & lightning (the first three are standard CNN fare; the last two are part of the Queen song Bohemian Rhapsody)
  • A seer raised up by God (although Mormons consider this to be Joseph Smith, the Bickertonites, another branch of Mormonism, are still looking for this seer)
  • The moon will turn to blood (I always wonder whether this means it will be red which is a common scientific phenomenon or whether someone will be murdered on the moon, which might be a good premise for a sci-fi novel)
  • The Son of Man will descend in the clouds of heaven (not to burst Charles Manson’s bubble, but I don’t think he qualifies based on this description alone)
  • The wicked will be destroyed off the face of the earth (or does this mean that the play Wicked will finally end its Broadway run?  See how enigmatic prophesies can be!)
  • Judah must return (Jews for Jesus?)
  • Jerusalem be rebuilt (this would be a lot easier if it weren’t a war zone)
  • A temple will be built in Jerusalem with water issuing from under the temple (a wellspring or someone left the water running in the bathroom?)
  • The waters of the Dead Sea will be healed (I assume this means freshwater instead of brackish, but maybe it has something to do with overfishing–see today’s AM post for more discussion on this point)
  • The sun will turn to darkness (hey, that happens every night!)
  • Earthquakes in diverse places (pretty common nowadays)
  • The seas will heave beyond their bounds (sounds like global warming)
  • There will be “one grand sign” of the Son of Man in heaven that people will mistakenly say is a comet or planet
  • Contrary to popular belief, all flesh will be subject to suffer from disease and famine, including the righteous  (sorry if this isn’t in your plans . . .)

After the Second Coming, here are the prophecies regarding the millenium:

  • Christ will reign personally (this doesn’t sound like there will be an election since the majority of the planet is still not Christian; or maybe he will just be really persuasive.)
  • The earth will be renewed (like a library book?) and receive its paradisaical glory (this is the only place you ever see that word paradisaical)
  • The nations will dwell in peace for 1000 years (that would be a nice change)
  • The earth will be as a sea of glass, one great Urim & Thummim, and when we look in it we will see as we are seen (So, if the internet is a Urim & Thummim, maybe this is like Facebook?)

The lesson talks about some of the good things about focusing on the Second Coming & Millenium:

  1. It motivates us to live the commandments and be good people.
  2. It provides a sense of urgency to fulfill the three missions of the church.
  3. For those enduring trials, there is an end in sight.

But there are also some potential negative side effects of this focus:

  1. Developing a complacent attitude that “this world” is temporary anyway and doesn’t matter; hardly an effective way to foster our stewardship of this earth (e.g. why recycle?).
  2. An expectation of reward for good deeds (rather than doing things out of a love of God & our fellow human beings).  This is kind of like the Santa Claus effect on children–10 months out of the year they behave like troglodytes, but they are perfect angels once Christmas is around the corner.
  3. A hyperbolic worldview in which danger lurks at every corner and there is a war for our souls at every turn; fear is not a good basis for Christian charity toward others or rational, balanced decision-making.

What are your thoughts as you think about the Second Coming and the Millenium?  Do you make an extra effort to be good when the moon turns red due to a solar eclipse when there are dust particles in the air?  Does thinking about the Second Coming motivate you to be a better person or is it too “out there” to contemplate?  Discuss.

Comments

comments

Comments 30

  1. Hawkgrrl,

    You’re pretty darn witty. First “get your ass out of the pit” and now this. I mean, “Wicked ending its broadway run” is just really funny.

    The only problem I have with “signs of the Second Coming” is that most of them are true of every time in history, so they don’t actually narrow it down. Healing the dead sea might be a good one to watch for, though.

  2. Hawkgrrl,

    You are witty and I love it.

    I have always had difficulty concerning Jerusalem being rebuilt. It is easy to look at this literally, especially since the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine. Some hold to this so literally that they feel US support for Israel is vital to the Second Coming.

    But sometimes I wonder if this doesn’t mean the Restoration in which Christ’s Church and kingdom on earth is rebuilt. This could mean the LDS Restoration or another restoration yet to come.

    Is God actually concerned about rebuilding a city?

    The negative side effect of a complacent attitude is also something I struggle with. Sometimes I find it odd that we fight so much to make the world a better place when we are taught that it is only going to get worse before Christ comes. Basically the scriptures are telling us to have charity and strive to love thy neighbor making the world a better place. But they are also saying “Sorry, dudes. Death and destruction await you.”

  3. The only thing I will look for, sign wise, to tell me how soon the Second Coming is, is the Two Prophets who are supposed to preach in Israel. They will preach for three years, get killed, stay dead on the streets for two days, and then come back to life. If you see that, the time is at hand. 🙂

  4. “Mea culpa”… you ought to repent 🙂 I was waiting to see what you would write about this class! But we’re asked to either skip the lessons or do two in one Sunday to stay up to date with the rest of the stake. I though this was world wide?

    Nice witty post though, and so irreverent! This is also by far my favourite mormon subject and I wonder why we don’t talk about it a more.

    As to Jesus’ reign, wouldn’t it be similar to what we see today with the European Crowns? Or even with Monson who technically does preside over whole earth.

    But then talking about it, the second coming, does make me want to be better and obey more commandments. I also travel at times near the desert here and when there is a low full moon, it turn a bright dark red due to the red dust in the air, and everytime I see that I say to myself ‘see, the prophesies are true’ but that doesn’t make me want to be better. Its just a confirmation or a ‘I told you so’ kind of thing.

    So talking about it in classes and at home does make me want to be better but these miracles don’t -miracles including the earthquakes, sea’s rising, plagues or the wickedness. Probably just how my twisted mind works 🙂

  5. CarlosJC,

    This has to be my LEAST favorite subject. My wife taught this lesson last week in RS, asked me for some advice, and I kind of followed Hawkgrrl’s first 3 points (and yes, the Civil War, or as they prefer to call it “The War Between the States” is still being debated in SC.) After that, it is pure speculation. The Book of Revelations, Isaiah, and the 2nd Coming all rank as my least favorite subjects.

    The thing I don’t get is this: people have been looking for Christ’s 2nd coming for 2000 years. As a youth, I was told countless times that it would happen in my lifetime. I have a brother and sister who were told the same thing, and unfortunately, they have both passed away. I don’t mean to be cynical, but what on earth makes us so arrogant to think this is really going to happen in our lifetime? It sure didn’t happen in my brother and sister’s lifetimes, and they were told the same thing.

  6. MH,

    After reading your comment the first thing that comes to mind is “Oh yea of little faith” (although technically that referred to something else). Anyway a few points here:

    a) lifetime usually refers to a set period of years, which for us today is around 90 years. So if your brother/sister were born after 1920 we are still, technically, living in their lifetime, although they themselves are gone to the spirit world.

    b) Whoever told you countless times, were they prophets or seers? If they weren’t, and whoever said that didn’t make it into, say, D&C, we need to take it with a grain of salt so to speak. What they say is what they may think will happen but strictly speaking the Lord has made it clear that no one knows when this will happen, my lifetime or anyone else’s.

    c) All these prophesies, for me, are a way to build the faith of the faithful. To those who don’t believe it is all foolishness. But when the believers see thing happening which were prophesied, which they heard mentioned somewhere before, their faith increases and strengthens to that point were one can say ‘I know’. So these prophecy’s are like markers on the side of the road to say to us ‘Yes, you are on the correct road here’, not there to prove to people that God lives or that this is the true church. Faith is killed off when that happens.

    I don’t think you are cynical here or that we are arrogant. Its all about finding out were the truth is and when it comes to religion most of it is seen as ‘pure speculation’ by many people both inside and outside the church. But the important thing is to keep looking and keep reaching conclusions about what we believe -and what we don’t.

  7. The idea that the millenium will commence in our lifetime was also common to the first church members of the restoration. They were clearly wrong. I think that’s a byproduct of the hyperbolic worldview. When you see life as a polemic war waging for souls at every turn, you’re prone to think we are a chosen generation, Saturday’s Warriors, or whatever.

    In reality, though, there are two equally expressed theological viewpoints on that in the church:
    1 – we are super special, reserved for these days when the world is ripening in iniquity; God saved the best for last.
    2 – the experience of a human life is pretty much the same throughout the ages. If life is a test, we’re all sitting the same exam, regardless of whether you wore a loincloth and bone in your nose in 2000 B.C. or a business suit and nose ring in 2008.

  8. CarlosJC,

    You bring up an interesting dilemma. Most of the people who said this were Bishops, Stake presidents, YM leaders, etc. While I can’t think of a specific example, I dare say that leaders in priesthood sessions of GC generally implied the same thing, if they didn’t explicitly state it. So are you saying they are not inspired? Do we dump our bishop’s inspiration on this matter?

    I tend to agree with Hawkgrrrl’s viewpoint #2–life is a test and is pretty much the same throughout the ages, whether 2000 BC or AD. I think viewpoint #1 should be trashed as theologically unsound. While it may sound good for our self-esteem and make us want to be better, (especially to the youth to whom it is generally addressed,) it just is not based in any sort of reality.

  9. When I was a teen in the 70’s, a wave of Second Coming hysteria swept through my stake. Girls were telling each other, in confidence, that their patriarchal blessings promised they would raise their children during the millennium and be changed in a twinkling of an eye at Christ’s coming. It was scary stuff and motivated me to feel more guilt than ever before.

    Just this week, my daughter told me that her friend told her, in confidence, that her patriarchal blessing promised she would raise her children during the millennium and be changed in a twinkling of an eye at Christ’s coming. Hm. It’s been a long time now that my school friends were told the same thing, and they’re all pretty much done raising their children in this new millennium (but not The Millennium).

    I’ve decided that, given the periodic resurgence of this kind of thinking, from the days of Joseph Smith until now, I’m not in the least interested in the timing of this supposed Second Coming. I think the only Last Days I care about are the last days of my own life, when my death approaches and I start to tremble at the thought of my own personal Judgement Day approaching. But all this other goofy stuff is not even on the radar as far as I’m concerned.

  10. “that their patriarchal blessings promised they would raise their children during the millennium”

    Could still be true. Women, and men, won’t necessarily avoid child making and rearing in the Millennium (the millennium that counts) after having several here. Maybe its a second change to get it right!

  11. MH, #8,#11

    Sure. I think this part “So are you saying they are not inspired? Do we dump our bishop’s inspiration on this matter?” only means that you misunderstood. Talking about the prophesies or any revelation doesn’t mean that there is a set time for them to happen nor that the ‘inspiration’ is off.

    You refer to “#2–life is a test and is pretty much the same throughout the ages,” I fully agree. This is a characteristic of mortality: it is basically the same for everyone.

    Luckily, though, we have some ‘faith builders’ and some ‘faith developers’ along the way in the prophesies. When we see them fulfilled, our faith is strengthened to the point were we can move on to other prophesies, to other levels of beliefs. For example take Israel and the 6-day war spoken of in the Old Testament. Once we saw that happen we then asked ourselves what’s next; earthquakes (yes, tick that) plagues (tick) gospel across the earth (tick, thanks to missionaries and the Internet) war on the streets of the cities (tick, LA riots et al?), wars in divers places (tick) the US to waste its youth and treasure on foreign wars (tick, and still ticking). None actually speak of a date, but we can infer that it won’t take much longer.

    As to #1- well I would say that it is roughly true, the strongest were, generally, held over for the last days. I don’t think that this is conflicting with the point of view in #2. I believe both can co-exist.

  12. Carlos,

    With all due respect, when a bishop says “the Second coming will come in your lifetime”, I just have a really hard time seeing how that “doesn’t mean that there is a set time for them to happen”. It seems you are engaging in double-speak here. I generally don’t like to dichotomize beliefs, but I can’t see how both the bishop and your explanation can both be simultaneously true. Perhaps I am just dense, but you’ll have to do a better job of explaining this apparent paradox. My lifetime is anything prior to my death, and I’m pretty sure that’s the same definition my bishop had, and I suspect it is the same definition you have. If you have a different definition, then I can see the problem.

    It seems the prophet Samuel the Lamanite was pretty specific about Christ’s birth (in 5 years), and the youth leaders are a little more vague (my lifetime), but they are basically intimating a specific time, which is prior to my death. That seems quite specific to me. With all the things you list, 6-day war, LA riots, then it sure seems like you are promoting that “it won’t take much longer.” Perhaps you are right, but I am certainly not so bold–it could take 1000 more years for all I know, and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if it does. What would surprise me is if I am still alive in 1000 years in the same body I have now.

  13. The prophecies contained in 3rd Nephi are also touched upon, of course, in the Doctrine & Covenants. I think that as to the time of their fulfillment, we do not understand much, much like the Saints (church members) at the time of the Savior’s ministry, and also that of the apostles following him.

    We find this in D&C 87—

    1 VERILY, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;

    2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.

    3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.

    4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.

    5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.

    (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 87:1 – 5)

    That prophecy was received on December 25, 1832. What I think we often fail to realize is that at that time Great Britain was a super power at that time both militarily and economically as the U.S. is/has been the past decades. To suppose that Great Britain would have to call upon any other nation for help in 1832 would surely have seemed quite ludicrous. But that they did, in both WWI & WWII.

    One of the MAJOR prophecies not even understood is one that is given THREE TIMES by the Savior (in 3rd Nephi), and strongly alluded to by Mormon in his own book.

    3rd Nephi 16, 20 & 21 all pound on “the remnant of Jacob” who, if the Gentiles won’t repent, will go through them as a lion among beasts fo the forest (and there is NONE who can deliver).

    For years, I had a hard time imagining how all of the drunks on the (Indian) reservations would do that. But, in 2005, when Pres Hinckley told us to read/reread the BoM, I realized that the remnant spoken of was much more likely to be or include illegal immigrants from Mexico & Central America (maybe some even from South America), who are descendants, many of them, at least, in part, of Lehi et al.

    They could be Latino gangs- for, after all, as the scriptures say, it is by the wicked that the wicked are punished.

    3 Nephi 21:14-15 holds a valuable key, though. I came to understand in December 2005 that this “cutting off” and “destroying” of ‘horses’ and ‘chariots’ would likely happen from an EMP (Electro-Magnetic Pulse) attack. Ever see “Oceans Eleven”? They use a “gun” to cause an EMP attack on a casino, to ease robbing it.

    In December 2005, a news story came out almost 1-1/2 years old, where a Commission set up by Congress in 2000 reported in July 2004 to Congress that Iran could have a nuclear bomb by 2015. That figure was later revised to 2009. And, guess what? One of the big news stories that came out just this last week is that Iran has enough nuclear material to make at least one atomic bomb!

    What does that have to do with 3rd Nephi? Plenty! The congressional commission that made its findings was set up after a military/political paper in Iran published in 1998 stated that they (the Iranians) would like to kill Americans the “old fashion” way— by starvation & pestilence. And, that paper stated that they thought they could do that by mounting an EMP attack on the US using one or two atomic bombs!

    The Congressional Commission told Congress in July 2004 that one atomic bomb of adequate strength, detonated say 100 miles above Indiana could destroy everything electrical and electronic in 70% of the US, most of Canada and Mexico. Imagine what two such bombs (say, one over Utah) could do (100%?)

    Nothing I have studied fits the 3 Nephi 21:14-15 prophecy (which, by the way, is a reiteration of a prophecy Micah gave around the time of Isaiah, found in Micah 5. Lest you wonder about its validity, that same chapter of Micah (5) also accurately foretold where the Messiah would be born (Bethlehem).

    (more in a minute or two)

  14. “A seer raised up by God” could have dual/multiple fulfillment/s. Certainly Joseph Smith fit that bill. But another “strong and mighty one” like Joseph Smith (perhaps a descendant of Lehi’s son, Joseph? – see Joseph’s patriarchal blessing in the BoM) may be the one to translate the heretofore sealed portion of the BoM!?!

    The moon turning to blood (& the sun dark as sackcloth) I use to think would have something to do with things happening to them. Since then, I am more inclined to think that there may possibly some mighty volcanic activity on the earth that may throw up a cloud of dust in the atmosphere!?!

    Seas heaving themselves beyond their bounds sound more like tsunamis. Boston is prophesied to be destroyed by a tsunami (so much for the ‘Big Dig’)

    The earth being turned into a sea of glass is a prophecy of what will happen at the end of the great millennium. Your ‘temple tour’ symbolically teaches this. We progress from Telestial to Terrestrial to Celestial (but, of course, the numbers get smaller each time, though).

    I would comment on more. But, unfortunately, I have work to do (“by the sweat of they brow”).

    One comment though. Two dangers mentioned often in association with prophecies of Christ’s 2nd coming. One is that people will think he will come sooner than he actually does, and others will assume he will come later than he actually does. Here, both those anticipating “too early” or “too late” will not be ready when it happens.

    Also, in studying this subject for a Sacrament talk I was asked to give years ago, I came to this realization in going through prophecies on this event which PERMEATE through ALL 4 standard works. And that realization is this. Whether you died in the time of Adam & Eve, or if you are consumed and still mortally alive when the fire rains down from heaven, you will largely view it the same. Malachi points out that the loss of opportunity to be with family (sealed, and have that sealing remain) will have an effect on every individual pretty much the same—

    1 FOR, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

    (Old Testament | Malachi 4:1)

  15. Mormon Heretic,

    “when a bishop says “the Second coming will come in your lifetime”, I just have a really hard time seeing how that “doesn’t mean that there is a set time for them to happen”. It seems you are engaging in double-speak here.” etc

    [In an attempt to clarify what I believe] Take what Joseph Smith said instead: “I will prophesy that the signs of the coming of the Son of Man are already commenced. One pestilence will desolate after another. We shall soon have war and bloodshed. The moon will be turned into blood. I testify of these things, and that the coming of the Son of Man is nigh, even at your doors. If our souls and our bodies are not looking forth for the coming of the Son of Man; and after we are dead, if we are not looking forth, we shall be among those who are calling for the rocks to fall upon them”

    In the correct context, I’d say the second coming is ‘soon’ compared to the time of the first coming, and honestly a ‘lifetime’ should include that time we may have in the spirit world if we see our mortal life cut short due to illness or war ie things we can’t control. But the point is to be ‘looking forth’ as JSJnr says. It really doesn’t matter what the technicalities of these prophesies are, just that we recognize that they are prophesies so that we find more peace in knowing that we are on the correct road.

    Maybe that Bishop was just plain wrong. Joseph Smith wrote about something similar by saying:

    “Jesus Christ never did reveal to any man the precise time that He would come [see Matthew 24:36; D&C 49:7]. Go and read the Scriptures, and you cannot find anything that specifies the exact hour He would come; and all that say so are false teachers.”14

  16. diligentdave,

    “For years, I had a hard time imagining how all of the drunks on the (Indian) reservations would do that. But, in 2005, …I realized that the remnant spoken of was much more likely to be or include illegal immigrants from Mexico & Central America (maybe some even from South America), who are descendants, many of them, at least, in part, of Lehi et al.
    They could be Latino gangs- for, after all, as the scriptures say, it is by the wicked that the wicked are punished.”
    …….

    What, there are drunk indians in america? And yes, latinos are all ms13! even the Italian latinos.

    But about Iran, haven’t you guys learned anything from Iraq or from that domino theory back in Vietnam? All you speak of reminds me of ‘those weapons of mass destruction’ theories.

    But then it is part of the prophesies that america will waste its youth and treasure on Foreign wars!

  17. Sigh.Member 40 years,heard it all before.Back during the Black Death civilisation as they then knew it did come to an end.Human beings have suffered in terrible calamities which they tried to make sense of as evidence of god’s wrath and the end of the world,promising themselves that they would be saved with God due to their own prescience and righteousness.I’m just busy these days raising my family,trying to teach them good values.I’ll leave this stuff to a Prophet,cos I’ve heard it all before.God will take us all some time,I want to be found doing the right stuff,making it as good as I can.I think some people spend way too much time with their scriptures when they could be fixxing the yard.

  18. Carlos JC said “And yes, latinos are all ms13! even the Italian latinos.”

    Not all, nor even necessarily most, or any majority are ‘MS 13’ or of any other gang. Definitely, a sizable minority in many areas are members of Latino gangs.

    Carlos JC also said “But about Iran, haven’t you guys learned anything from Iraq or from that domino theory back in Vietnam? All you speak of reminds me of ‘those weapons of mass destruction’ theories.

    Going to war in Iraq was wrong. I opposed that war at the first. I didn’t think the requirements for going to war laid out clearly in The Book of Mormon were there. Still don’t. However, we must deal with the situation as it is, and not as we wish it were.

    Also, my statement does NOT dictate any given response, other than we should repent! The Lord’s hand won’t defend us or prevent our enemies from attacking us if we don’t repent. I would strongly recommend against a pre-emptive strike. That always backfires. It did for the Nephites when they won their defensive battles under Mormon. But going offensive was their undoing.

    One response, though, otherwise, I would recommend. Repenting by doing what the brethren have told us to do in regards to getting & maintaining at least a year’s supply of food.

    Carlos JC also said “But then it is part of the prophesies that america will waste its youth and treasure on Foreign wars!”

    Not exactly. But the Lord did say this through Isaiah, which was reiterated by Nephi in the BoM—

    12 And my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they who lead thee cause thee to err and destroy the way of thy paths.

    (Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 13:12)

  19. Hawkgrrl,

    “Contrary to popular belief, all flesh will be subject to suffer from disease and famine, including the righteous (sorry if this isn’t in your plans . . .)”

    We’ve lived in prosperity for so long, I don’t think most Church members really see this (famine) as likely to happen. Most, I believe, think the Church will rescue them, when they’ve done little or nothing to prepare.

    Would Noah have been saved if he had not built the ark as commanded? After all, nobody else did either!

    Sorry! But he would have drowned like the rest too!

  20. Carlos,

    Thanks for you answer, “Maybe that Bishop was just plain wrong.” I just want to make one minor correction–those bishops–plural. I’ve heard this from many bishops, stake presidents, and YM/YW presidencies, not just one rogue one. I know many faithful orthodox members who would have a problem with your failing to uphold your (or at least my) leaders inspiration.

    As stated before, I have never liked that line of reasoning that the 2nd coming is imminent, but as wayfarer says, we should live like it is imminent, whether or not we believe the 2nd coming will happen tomorrow or in 1000 years.

  21. “Most, I believe, think the Church will rescue them, when they’ve done little or nothing to prepare.” Well, that’s what I’m banking on. That plus pool water constitutes my food storage.

  22. #19 Wayfarer,

    “Ugh,Carlos’latino gangs’? How useful is that?Go get dinner for someone.”

    Ah, mam, I got that dinner for someone; Should I go and do your lawns now? Mam, or Sir, whatever you are!

  23. #20 diligentdave,

    About that revelation on America wasting its youth and treasure on foriegn wars, I believe it was Brigham Young who prophesied this (or maybe it was Pratt, not sure). It didn’t make into the D&C, so we can take it with care, but given the USA’s recent history, since say WW1 to today, I tend to take more notice of it. If you’re really interested I’ll chase it down and quote it correctly.

    But yes, repentance, is the key in all of this. The line on ms13 was just tongue in cheek! nothing serious. But just blame all those dam immigrants, the hispanic ones not the british ones, so they will fully accept you in the GOP!! (tongue in cheek, off course)

  24. #22 MH,

    At the end of it all we have to make up our own minds on this. Just be careful when claiming that it isn’t imminent if it causes you to think that it won’t happen at all.

    But then you decide if you do, I’m just expressing my own beliefs here.

  25. Dear Hawkgrrrl,

    We make choices in our lives that alter God’s plans for us, and that is painfully hard to accept, and so we would rather conjecture over the falsity of a ministry than accept responsibility for our actions. I am sorry if this seems harsh, but we should be less conceerned with verifying dates and more concerned with cleaning up our attitude, changing our behaviors, and reinstating our beliefs so that our futures will fulfill God’s plan for us. I will repeat what I recently told my daughter, there is no such fate as, too late. We can turn all of the above around to get on track again and experience the peace and joy of following our Prophet. No war nor such calamity, disease nor pestilience will alienate us more permenantely from the grace of God as presuming to be more righteous than those chosen to lead. It is not our place to conjecture over worthiness or accuracy of Bishops, unless we are content to be counted as those denying the Holy Spirit… Is there more safety in your discourse than that that of your leaders? If they are mistaken does God need you to expound on it? I am sure you have much to attend to with out adding someone elses accountability into your own. You must be bored or think yourself perfect. I think you have your work cut out for you without the added burden of someone elses. Good luck with your life…I would rather be saying continue in your faith…

  26. CarlosJC said—

    “#20 diligentdave,

    About that revelation on America wasting its youth and treasure on foriegn wars, I believe it was Brigham Young who prophesied this (or maybe it was Pratt, not sure). It didn’t make into the D&C, so we can take it with care, but given the USA’s recent history, since say WW1 to today, I tend to take more notice of it. If you’re really interested I’ll chase it down and quote it correctly.

    But yes, repentance, is the key in all of this. The line on ms13 was just tongue in cheek! nothing serious. But just blame all those dam immigrants, the hispanic ones not the british ones, so they will fully accept you in the GOP!! (tongue in cheek, off course)”

    Please do chase the quote/prophesy down, if you would.

    Your TIC (Tongue-In-Cheek) almost seems to be “turrets (syndrome) like”!?!(TIC)

    I’m not bashing “illegal” immigration, per se (on one hand at least). If white women in the USA won’t have enough children on their own, one needs more immigrants (whether “legal” or “illegal”) to take up and make up the slack. If you didn’t catch it, I am blaming the gentiles (read WASP as in “White Anglo-Saxon & Protestant / of just “white Americans”) for not having enough children since probably at least 1961 (“the Pill” was introduced in 1960, the year my wife was born). She is 48 years old now (as of late 2008). Interestingly, there are more 48-year olds in the US currently than ANY OTHER AGE GROUP! That was the peak year, perhaps, in the baby boom, unless more have just died from the immediate post-war years! (I’m too lazy to check on that statistic at this point).

    I assert that we have less of a “Latino problem” in the US than we have a WASP problem (or WASC or even WASS – I don’t care if they are Protestant, Catholic or Secular). 1.71 children, overall, per female, per lifetime, just doesn’t hack it. There aren’t enough bodies to change baby’s diaper, grandpa’s diaper, and make “widgets” too!

    And I further assert that it has become a problem in (our) the (LDS) Church as well. In 1982, the year my oldest (my wife and I have nine children) was born (and we have seven daughters), when the Church’s membership just went above 5 million, there were 124,000 “children of record”. Last year’s “children of record” number was a few hundred below that of the year before, and neither number was even within 5,000 of 100,000 !!! And we have over 13 million (LDS) Church members TODAY! That is PATHETIC, any way you slice it!

    “Shall the Youth of Zion Falter?” THEY HAVE—ALREADY! In sheer numbers!!! And it is NOT their (the youth’s) fault. It is their parents’ fault, for trusting in the “wisdom of man” or the “arm of the flesh” rather than in the “true and living God”!

    Want to talk about idolatry? Probably unwittingly, too many (LDS) Church members practice “idolatry”, by trusting in “carnal security” (including “Social Security” – a Ponzi scheme that makes even Bernie Madoff (in BILLIONS of Other Peoples’ Dollars) appear tiny in comparison ! ! !

  27. Well…. I’m not a preacher, a priest, a prophet (?)…..I’m just an older woman with 2 kids in life, from a marriage I should have know better than to enter into…,  trying to make it in life, working at any crummy job that will pay the bills….not been too bad at times, not been too good either…. a little crazy at times, once more so than another…..but I believe…and I MAY BE MISTAKEN…. but I think that the 2nd Coming was supposed to transpire in April 2009…. I NOW have many reasons to belive this.  I always worry about the weather, but now I have even more reason to worry.  I’m not a bible thumping hell and damnation person… I believe in live and let live.  I have written letters and tried to figure this out on my own, but I cannot. There seems to always be 500 ways of doing things.   I am certainly open to discuss this for I hope that I truely am crazy, for at times there is no 911 number for God.  For we usually relate things to our own little world, ourselves, our family, friends, community maybe.  And the heat goes on.

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