It’s been over a year since someone posted something on Book of Mormon geography, so I think it’s about time. Most of you believe that the Book of Mormon occurred in Central America, right? Well it turns out there are over 100 theories. Check out this big list, which is incomplete.
In 1991, John Sorenson of BYU, the “dean” of Book of Mormon geography, created a book called “The Geography of Book of Mormon Events: A Source Book“. (It is hard to find because it has no ISBN #, but can be purchased at the BYU Bookstore as well as some bookstores specializing on obscure Mormon books.) I reviewed the book, and grouped the theories into basic categories.
(1) Internal Theories. Any scholar should create a map before trying to locate it in the real world.
(2) Hemispheric Models. Mormons originally thought that the Book of Mormon peoples covered the entire North and South America.
(3) Central America Models. The bulk of “Mormon approved” scholars support this general group of theories.
(4) South America Models. Joseph Smith is reported to have said that Lehi landed 30 degrees South of the equator, in what would be modern day Chile.
(5) The Great Lakes Theories. Since the golden plates were found in NY, the BOM lands must be nearby. The Narrow Neck is near the Great Lakes.
The book is now close to 20 years old. Since it was published, a flood of new theories have been created. The following 2 theories are some of the most radical.
(6) The African Theory by Embaye Melekin. Michael Ash wrote a review of this theory in 2001. Melekin claims that his book titled, “Manifestations mysteries revealed,” has proven “beyond the shadow of a doubt that the Book of Mormon is an African book and about Africans. . . . My book will change the church and the belief of the Mormons drastically.”
(7) The Malay Theory. This theory says it would have been much easier for Nephi to travel a 4000 mile journey to the Malay Peninsula than a 16000 mile journey in open seas to the Americas, and the Malay Peninsula is a better description of the Narrow Neck of Land.
So, what if the Book of Mormon is true, but we’re digging in the wrong place? I decided to look at one of the radically different geography theories-the Malay theory. I discovered it in the footnotes of the Wikipedia article on Archaeology and the Book of Mormon. The theory even has its own section here, as well as a Wikipedia article. If you look in the footnotes, you’ll see a link to a Sunstone article written by Ralph Olsen. (You must open the attachment with the free Adobe Reader.)
In the Sunstone article, he lists his mailing address, so I wrote him a letter. Ralph Olsen is a retired chemistry professor at Montana State University, with research interests in plants, soils, and microbes. I asked him why he picked Malay as a possible Book of Mormon location, and he cited several reasons:
(1) The peninsula is north-south, unlike Sorenson’s east-west orientation
(2) The problems with animals go away. Elephants, sheep, horses, etc. all date to the proper time period
(3) The civilization dates to the proper time period, and had chariots, iron, silk, etc
(4) There were dark-skinned people pre-existing on the peninsula. If they intermarried with the Lamanites, (while the Nephites did not intermarry) that might explain the “dark and loathsome” peoples in the Book of Mormon
(5) The shorter 4000 mile oceanic travel makes more sense than a 16000 mile journey. Even the FAIR produced DVD called Journey of Faith, (which shows many Old World evidences of the Book of Mormon), indicates Nephi would have hugged the coastline, and the path goes right by the Malay Peninsula.
(6) Alma 63: 5 And it came to pass that Hagoth, he being an aexceedingly curious man, therefore he went forth and built him an exceedingly large ship, on the borders of the land bBountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the cnarrow neck which led into the land northward.
a. Traditional Mormon scholars seem to support the idea that Hagoth traveled eastward and populated the Pacific Islands (such as Hawaii, Tonga, etc),
b. Scholarly consensus indicates that Native Americans came from Asia, and came along one of two routes. (1) the Bering Strait, or (2) they hopped across the Pacific Islands (such as Hawaii, Tonga, etc), before arriving in the Americas. Olsen’s migratory theory seems to be backed up by more scientists.
(7) DNA evidence seems to be better. While not endorsing the Malay Theory, Simon Southerton even commented on my blog that “I’m not aware of any DNA evidence from South East Asia linking populations there with the Middle East. South East Asia has been heavily populated for tens of thousands of years, with large civilizations. It is possible that Jewish sailors colonized parts of Asia though.”
Unrelated to this theory, a Jewish documentary filmmaker named Simcha Jacobovici has made the claim that the tribe of Manasseh may be located in the Malay Peninsula in his film “Quest for the Lost Tribes” , which I blogged about previously. Jacobovici maintains that when Babylon invaded Israel and scattered them in 600 BC, that some of the tribes were taken across land to Malay. This could seemingly explain how the Mulekites got there, and why the Nephites (who traveled by boat) couldn’t understand them.
There is also a legend in Malay stating that some shipwrecked Jewish people landed there, possibly indicating the Nephites landing there. As we know from the Book of Mormon, Nephi and Lehi were from the tribe of Manasseh. Jacobovici states in his film that some of the local citizens in Malay claim to be from the Tribe of Manasseh.
Olsen has written a short book called “A More Promising Land of Promise”, which is available for purchase on his own website. He encourages people to critique his work, so if you have problems with his theories, be kind, but please express them. I told him I was going to post on his theory, and he may or may not stop by. (He is not technologically savvy.)
My biggest problems with the theory are:
(1) How did the plates get to New York? Olsen admits that he doesn’t know. But he also points out that Sorenson doesn’t adequately explain how the 200 lb plates moved from Guatemala 3,000 miles north to NY without a wheeled vehicle.
(2) Joseph Smith History 1:34 “[Moroni] said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang.”
a. Olsen’s argument emphasizes this scripture differently, instead emphasizing “and the source from whence they sprang.” He says the source is the Malay Peninsula, and that is how to overcome this apparent discrepancy. I can see his point, but I know that is not a traditional understanding of that scripture, and I’m not sure I buy it.
For those of you who want more information, the longer version of this post can be found here. And if you really want to see this theory, Ralph Olsen has given me permission to make his unpublished manuscript available. It can be found here. Patience is a virtue…It’s 300 pages and 20 MB is size!
So, what do you think? Do you have any other major problems with the theory? Is there anything you like about the theory?
UPDATE 4/27/2009. Sorenson’s proposed Oceanic Journey.
Comments 342
Malay?
Well the biggest problem is the very last one. Moroni doesn’t say at all that he traveled to a distant land to deposit the plates. He, in fact, very much states that he is now all on his own in the same land as the Lamanites. That is surely a long journey for Moroni to make all on his own with a 200 lb set of gold plates that he must keep hidden and protected. He still has to get to upstate New York. And from Malaysia, without airplanes or cars, that is a very very long trip for one man to take, on his own, carrying such heavy weight, and trying not to be seen by anyone. For comparison, consider how long it took for Nephi’s group to go from near Jerusalem to Bountiful, in modern day Oman. That took what, eight years? And that was barely 1000 miles.
I guess it depends on which one you find more incredible.
1. A group of people create a boat and cross the Indian and Pacific Oceans to get to their promised land.
2. An individual journeys by himself from Malay to New York while staying hidden from anyone carrying 200 lb of gold.
I don’t know about you, but the first one makes more sense to me. It also makes more sense having Moroni take 20 years to get to upstate New York trying to stay hidden in a land of enemies with 200 lb of gold while journeying from Central America to upstate New York. I can see that journey taking 20 years. I can’t see it from Malay. That is REALLY far away.
I still lean on the Yucatan Penninsula as the preferred spot for the events of the Book of Mormon to take place.
“And from Malaysia, without airplanes or cars, that is a very very long trip for one man to take, on his own, carrying such heavy weight, and trying not to be seen by anyone…”
I was speechless to read “The Raja Bahrin Story” This is a modern version of Autobiography of a Malay father who had sailed ’empty-handed’ly by boat to Melbourne some years ago….
Please have a read.
“An individual journeys by himself from Malay to New York while staying hidden from anyone carrying 200 lb of gold.”
…. What a chemist says about gold? How many part of the world is covered with gold? 5 in how many billion square feet of area? Please surf to conform. And we saw in the old map that was sketched from hearsay this world “Golden Chernose” ..(something like that) which is referred to Peninsular Malaysia.
It is interesting to think.
“That is REALLY far away…”
R.A Jairazbhoy.
Have you heard his name? A brilliant man who bring the light that the first to discover American continent is not Christopher Colombus but ancient Egyptian men? Do surf for his books in Amazon.com
His name is in Tertius Chandler’s list of 40 geniuses that does not enter university.
Dan, it is only a naive connection an un-experienced one like the novice me made. I am proud if you take my suggested reading material to be read.
Tq.
Well, I like anything that gets us thinking about something other than Mesoamerica. It’s not that I’m anti-Mesoamerican theories, per se, but the attitude of FARMS and others has always come across to me as dismissive of everything else, which means that if we ARE digging in the wrong place, we’d never know it. I think we should be looking everywhere, if only because that kind of openness will lead us to discover things that we’ve never suspected.
Has anyone proposed Florida? I didn’t notice anything on the big list, but it seems to have the north-south property of Malay (with a little imagination and an alteration of the coastline circa AD 34).
Dan,
Once Moroni left the battle field, there would be no reason to remain hidden. While we read about Lehi’s journey of 8 years in the wilderness, we often think that he was alone. However, most scholars believe that Lehi interacted with local Arabs in order to get water and supplies. (His sons were guilty of the murder of Laban, but the Arabs would have not known that–therefore there was no reason to conceal their identities on the long 8 year journey.) Even though other people aren’t mentioned in Lehi’s journey doesn’t mean they were alone. The same reasoning applies to Moroni–there would have been no need to conceal himself after he was out of the battlefield.
Let me quote from Sorensen’s book, “An Ancient American Setting For the Book of Mormon” page 44:
Two Cumorahs?
A question many readers will have been asking themselves is a sound and necessary one: how did Joseph Smith obtain the gold plates in upstate New York if the final battleground of the Nephites was in Mesoamerica?
…We have no definitive answer, but we can construct a plausible picture. Mormon reports that he buried all the records in his custody at the Hill Cumorah of the final battle except for certain key golden plates (Mormon 6:6). Those from which Joseph Smith translated, he entrusted to his son Moroni. As late as 35 years afterward, Moroni was still adding to those records (Moroni 10:1). He never does tell us where he intended to deposit them, nor where he was when he sealed those records (Moroni 10:34). The most obvious way to get the plates to New York state would have been for somebody to carry them there. Moroni could have done so himself during those final, lonely decades.
Couldn’t Moroni be able to go pretty much anywhere in the world in 35 years (with the Lord’s help)?
Neal, I don’t believe anyone has proposed Florida (yet). I will say that Rodney Meldrum believes Nephi landed in the Gulf of Mexico near New Orleans, and that the groups traveled up the Mississippi and Ohio River valleys, and ended up near the Great Lakes.
Neal: One of the comments on a recent FAIR blog post suggests Florida. It has a narrow neck of land, and a river that flows south to north. But I have not seen any detailed arguments for it.
Could somebody explain to me what Wikipedia meant when they called some models “mormon approved”. I thought the official stance was the unknown/ it doesn’t matter model.
I tend towards the Great Lakes Theories. . .
I believe the Meso-American theory because it is the only one that has the technological advances explained in the Book of Mormon around the time of narrative events. To me, that is a huge consideration because of how vague the geographic descriptions are. By the way, the gold plates have been credibly (and by eye witnesses) described as between 60 to 80 pounds and not 200 lbs. They weren’t a chunk of gold brick.
Morgan,
I was not aware of a Florida theory. Do you have a link? Also, which wikipedia link are you referring to? Th LDS church has no official position on geography, as you said.
Paul,
I have looked into the Great Lakes Theories, but the 2 main problems I have with them are: (1) the Indian tribes of the area are too primitive to be the organized cities that the BoM mentions–technologically, they were practically stone age, (2) I can’t imagine anyone wearing just a loin cloth around Lake Michigan in winter–climatologically, it is a big stretch.
Jettboy,
Mosiah 8:11
11 And again, they have brought swords, the hilts thereof have perished, and the blades thereof were cankered with rust;
There is not a single shred of evidence that Native Americans used swords out of metal. On the contrary, they have been shown to use wooden clubs, with tips of obsidian rock. While sharp, obsidian certainly won’t rust. Sorensen has claimed these wooden/obsidian weapons meet the definition of swords, but since obsidian doesn’t rust, it doesn’t seem to fit the criteria in Mosiah.
There were no wheeled vehicles either in the Americas (North, Central, or South), yet the BoM talks about chariots.
Alma 18:9-10
9 And they said unto him: Behold, he is feeding thy horses. Now the king had commanded his servants, previous to the time of the watering of their flocks, that they should prepare his horses and chariots, and conduct him forth to the land of Nephi; for there had been a great feast appointed at the land of Nephi, by the father of Lamoni, who was king over all the land.
I’ve always liked the African theory, it is the most twilightzone out of the bunch. I enjoy reading about it the same way I enjoy reading about Sasquatch and alien abductions.
yes i agree but the whole book of morman was from solamon spoldings book that was taken and then joe added to it but its all a morman lye
The plates were not 200 lbs. Contemporary witnesses in Joseph’s day estimated them at 40-60 lbs. The idea of “200 lbs” comes from assuming a block of solid gold.
So, a wheeled vehicle is hardly likely to be required in any case. 🙂
Author
Are we talking just Moroni’s plates? Didn’t he carry other plates with him too?
However much they weighed, they were heavy enough.
Here is the link I was referring. Steve Danderson mentions it just a little ways down in relation to one person advocating a Mississippi model.
http://www.fairblog.org/2009/03/31/a-look-at-meldrums-revised-dvd/#comments
The wikipedia link I was referring to was the “big list”. In mentioning the Mesoamerica models it calls them “mormon approved”. Judging from the comments here and other places I think alot of different models are “Mormon approved.”
Author
I think the Florida reference was a joke–see the wink. 😉
The Wiki article needs to be more clear, as your characterization of the LDS church’s position is correct.
lol. Oops, I guess the joke was on me then. Maybe I have heard so many wild theories I had no problem with entertaining the idea of Florida, since I don’t think it is any more outrageous than Malay or Africa models.
well its as good as the rest..because the book of morman is a fraud by the morman church..its all aout money
I am the original author of the geography sections of This Land Zarahemla and the Nephite Nation.Rod Meldrum’s theory is based off my original theory, though he will not admit it. But of course, some elements of my original theory was based off other things that I can’t entirely take credit for. But others were my own innovations. Anybody that knows me knows that I have retracted that book, all accept for Cumorah in New York, while the co-author Wayne May continues to publish it, because he was also the publisher that owns the book. May and Meldrum are teamed up now, and I have nothing to do with them.
And that I’m now an advocate for the Mesoamerican theory all accept for the New York Cumorah. And who knows what my opinion will be next week or next year. I’m trying my best to follow the evidence as I see it now, though I admit that I have an emotional tie to the New York Cumorah. But I let go of all the rest of the stuff I had an emotional tie to that didn’t fit the evidence.
The Maylay theory doesn’t account for the exceedingly great distance in the Book of Mormon. Nor does it account for the statements in the D&C and Pearl of Great Price that place the Book of Mormon in the Americas.
I now believe that that a New York Cumorah cannot be proven to the FARMS types. Its not that plausible arguments cant be made for a Cumorah in New York. Its not a conspiracy. Its just a bunch of people that now have an ideology. But its also an honest ideology where these men believe that they have followed the best evidence. I don’t believe they have followed the best evidence, but oh well.
I have changed my mind about trying to prove these people wrong in my writings. I am now seeking to have a rational argument for the New York Cumorah for my own sake, and my audience will be people that are open to the idea. I’m tired of fighting the other ideology. It just makes me angry to try to fight it, and I’m tired of being angry about it.
But suffice it to say, Book of Mormon Geography is the worst subject to write about in the Church. And sometimes I wonder why I care about it. I guess I might be obsessed to get it right.
Wait, we can believe in angels coming back to earth and giving people ancient records buried in a hill, but a wormhole between a cave in upstate NY and one in Malay is out of the question? Are there no sci-fi fans theorizing about BOM geography?
I want a concrete and rational Book of Mormon that makes sense in the real world. Not a scifi fantasy. I guess I didn’t appreciate the humor in that statement if humor was intended. This is serious business for me, something that I take very seriously.
well you ott to save your money because joe smith was a con man and a lyer and he and parly pratt and the rest of the crooks made it all up,look how rich the lds church is by keeping the lies going…
Fascinating, all of it. A Florida theory would be interesting, and I like this Malay theory. I think I like it because, more than anything, I really hate it when people call American/Central American Indians “Lamanites”. It just seems ignorant to me, and I don’t think that I would want to be called a Lamanite if I were American Indian and a new convert to the church or just learning about the church. I mean, the Lamanites ended up as the bad guys in the end.
I’ll be the one to say that I don’t think we’re likely to find out for sure anytime soon (at least not through traditional scholarship, and I don’t see the Church making a statement). As far as the plates being deposited in Cumorah: 1) after death, Moroni was resurrected; 2) Moroni was charged with guarding the golden plates. As a resurrected being and “angel”, is it not possible that he could have somehow, over some 1400 years (I think I have my dates right?), found a way to get them from just about anywhere in the world to upstate NY? Without a full and complete understanding of how resurrection and being an angel works I can’t explain the actual physical process (teleportation? magic? – kidding), I think that if you believe in those concepts then it’s fully plausible that Moroni could somehow have moved the plates in the period between the end of the Book of Mormon and the early 1800s. I’m probably not the only person to think of this (I hope).
And I’m not a Book of Mormon history scholar in any way.
I’m inclined to ascribe to the possibility/probability that Joseph Smith didn’t “translate” everything from the gold plates perfectly. There are numerous disclaimers made in the Book of Mormon about the frailties of men in using language to communicate the things of God (Nephi, Mormon, and Moroni all lament their failings and limitations; and its on the title page!). I don’t take much stock in arguments about horses, chariots, swords, and the like because it is possible that Joseph Smith simply used an English word where no satisfactory translation sufficed. JS could have also simply erred in his translation in places. We’ll never be able to know for certain. Using Occam’s Razor, which is more likely: 1) that every word in the Book of Mormon was translated exactly as God intentioned (despite constant official editing since its publication in 1830), or 2) that the sermons, stories, and consequent historical cues interspersed could conceivably contain errors?
Accepting the possibility/probability that not everything written in our Book of Mormon was translated correctly, I see the Meso-American locus for BoM events as most plausible, and I’m willing to pass over concerns over tangential historical, geographical, or anthropological details. If the Book of Mormon really contains historical accounts of people who actually lived and worshiped the God of Israel in a distant promised land, I’m more interested in archeological and anthropological evidences of the effects of knowing the gospel of Jesus Christ six centuries before he appeared on the Earth, which should spill over (as it does in our modern cultures) in monumental architecture and artistic expression.
I’m with you Hawkgrrl, you just beat me to the punch while I was writing my thoughts 🙂
Author
Ed,
The Maylay theory doesn’t account for the exceedingly great distance in the Book of Mormon. Nor does it account for the statements in the D&C and Pearl of Great Price that place the Book of Mormon in the Americas.
What exceedingly great distance are you referring to?
As for statements in the D&C, and PoGP, I agree with you–that is a weakness, but Olsen has tried to slant his theory as “the sources from whence they sprang.”
J.Ro, If you’re into magic woo woo BS, go right ahead and theorize like that. I’m a skeptic of all things supernatural. My God is not a supernatural God, but is a human being. My Bible is a Bible of archaeology with real artifacts and real sites. And my Book of Mormon is a record of a fallen people who really died and really wrote on tablets of gold, and really stuck that record in a hill regardless of where they were buried. Maylay is too much, because it asks too much. Too much nonsense attached to it. If we are going to get to the core, we are going to do it with rationality. Not because prophets said so. Not because someone waived a magic wand over plates. Not because there was a stargate in the hill cumorah to Mexico or to Malaysia. Lets pull our heads out of the clouds and get down to business. Let’s all be rational.
And why exactly why does it matter where the Book of Mormon lands are located, any more than which Jerusalem burial site was where Christ was Resurrected? If it made any difference it would have been revealed. It is interesting, I guess, to speculate to give people something to occupy their time, but since we will not find out the answer in this life – why bother?
Heretic, I’m talking about the exceedingly great distance demanded by the text between the narrow Neck of Land and the large bodies of water to the North, to which Cumorah is tied in the text of the Book of Mormon. This reading of the internal geography is traditional, but FARMS types won’t acknowledge its plausibility. If you guys are those types, I guess I have nothing to say to you, as I now refuse to argue that point anymore.
Ed, if you can rationally, and scientifically if you like, explain everything in the New Testament to me, then you’ve got my ear. (The NT because it’s at least more widely accepted than the BoM.) Personally, I know for sure that we don’t know everything there is to know about anything. If that makes sense. Basic physics taught me that. Because of that, I think it’s entirely reasonable to say that there are things that happen(ed) that we just can’t explain away with what we know now. You probably disagree, if I’m reading into your comments correctly.
J.Ro,
I don’t have to explain anything to anybody, only to say that beneath all phenomena, there is no magic. Priesthood is the powers of heaven, not magic. Moroni came down in a pillar of light and fire, but that is not magic. That is the power of heaven manifest, which is just as real as photons bouncing off your retina. It is electromagnetic in nature, and there is no such thing as immaterial matter. All that said, we need not say there had to be any kind of miracle or intervention in anything when it is not required, and furthermore, we need only assume that a miracle using natural law happened to part the red sea, or things like that. And with those, it was natural law. I don’t need to prove a thing of faith to you. On the other hand, if we say the Book of Mormon is historical and real, then we need to get down and dirty with the rational fact that it means that you can dig a hole, and the artifacts you dig up are from real people that lived back then. And if you can figure out the geography, you know that the hole you dug had something to do with those people, and what you dug out of it was made by either them, or people that had dealings with them.
So I don’t need to prove anything to you. I just need to say that the Book of Mormon and the New Testament are things that happened in the real world. And modern labels are attached to the Book of Mormon Cultures. For example, Maya = Lehite + any number of others that mixed with them.
Author
Ed,
It seems you have some strong feelings for this subject. I’m all for debating merits, and I’m not trying to say this theory is the greatest, but it does solve many problems that Mesoamerica has. How the plates got to the Americas is a great question, and Olsen speculates that Moroni could have traveled by boat to the Americas. If we all believe that Nephi traveled to the Americas in less than a year, why is it implausible that Moroni couldn’t travel to the Americas in the 35 years after Mormon buried the plates? How is this any more implausible than Noah’s ark (or is Noah’s ark implausible too)?
As for SteveS’ Occams razor argument, it seems to me that Malay is a land which has seas in all directions (including north), and I think the anachronisms about elephants, horses, chariots, swords are much more easily explained in Asia than Mesoamerica. As such, Occam’s razor seems much more in favor of an Asian settlement, than American one, even if it seems implausible to many.
I will also note that there are people in the Malay peninsula claiming to have jewish ancestry, as I mentioned in my post about Simcha Jacobovici. I believe there is a genome project to verify this claim, and it is supposed to be completed within the next 5-10 years. So I ask, if Jewish DNA is found in Malay, is this theory really that implausible? Some of you may have heard about the Lemba tribe in Africa have claimed Jewish ancestry. Sure enough, DNA has validated that claim.
Heretic,
I’m for rationality, and the Maylay has elements of irrationality to it. That’s all I have to say. I’m a skeptic, and I’m looking for real answers, and anybody that even considers the Maylay explanation has elements of irrationality in their thought process. I can see that I need to get out of this conversation, that I’m once again getting too emotional about proving points to people. Have a great day.
Author
Ed,
What is the irrationality you find? What specifically is the problem?
Heretic: Any proposition going against the idea that Book of Mormon lands are not somewhere between the Arctic Ocean and the tip of South America in the Americas is irrational to the core, because it denies the central premise that it is an American book. And among those that propose various things for America, there are varying degrees of rationality.
The Maylay peninsula thing makes the Book of Mormon into a fable. You might as well be saying that the Book of Mormon is ahistorical and be done, if you are willing to consider that, which I truly believe is the real thing behind the Maylay proposition anyway.
Author
Ed,
I assume you’re quite familiar with Sorenson. Sorenson has basically said that Joseph didn’t really know where the BoM lands are. There is the quote from the Clayton diary where Joseph is reported to have said that Lehi landed 30 degrees south of the equator in what is now modern-day Chile. Joseph also embraced claims on the Yucatan Peninsula. The story of Zelph is in Missouri. Joseph believed in a Hemispheric model, not a limited model.
So, Sorenson basically says “look at the evidence”, because Joseph didn’t know. Sorenson has gone to great lengths to figure out distances, and much of this work makes sense. But Sorenson’s narrow neck is not narrow, nor is it north-south. So while he brings considerably weight to the topic, he basically says that Joseph didn’t know where the BoM lands are.
I ask you that if the Sword of Laban, palace of King Noah, and Title of Liberty were found convincingly in Malay, would that make the BoM ahistorical, or historical?
I don’t particularly care what Sorenson ever said about anything, nor do I care what Joseph Smith believed. Joseph Smith also believed in Moonmen, and I don’t put stock in anything that any prophet ever said about Geography. I only care what the Book of Mormon text says. And I only care what the D&C & PofGP say about its historicity and location.
And I’d have to question your sword of Laban and palace of King Noah, whether they are archaeological frauds or if they are misidentified. Again, what is the evidence, and on whose terms will it be called evidence? Sorenson ignores evidence in the text for his ideological readings of the text. You have your favorite sacred cow too so it seems. And so do I, I suppose. I don’t see any fruit coming out of furthering this.
Author
Ed,
I’m for exploring other theories too. I’ve already devoted 5 parts to a Great Lakes Theory on my blog (see here), and I plan a future post on South American models too. I’m geographically agnostic. I think this theory has flaws (language, how plates got to NY, to name a few). I have no sacred cows. My question to you is a hypothetical one–what if these artifacts are found in the future? What if they were at least as convincing as Nahom, and the candidates for Nephi’s harbor (Khor Rhori, and Wadi Sayq/Khor Kharfot) in Yemen?
Science is self corrective, and so is the gospel as more is revealed. Hypothetical stuff is for people that want to look into a crystal ball to divine something, and don’t want to have to deal with evidence as we have it in the present. Go look at my book from 2002, and I can show you some real convincing place names that led me astray. I thought I had found real golden nuggets. Niagara = Narrow Neck of land, Mississippi = Fish River = Tsydon (in Hebrew). Toronto = Bountiful. And these I can prove from Indian place-name dictionaries. Guess what. They are transplants from Mesoamerican settlers to the great lakes region that named things after places they were familiar with. Go figure. But this fact was enough to throw me when I didn’t know any better. And now you want me to comment on those, having no idea why they are what they are. Place name games are like finding racecars and dragons in the clouds, or like the face on Mars.
Ed, while I am not a “proponent” of the Malay theory, I need to say a few things – just to try to position the overall discussion in a way that is true to the Book of Mormon itself:
1) MH mentioned this, but Moroni getting to New York isn’t an issue no matter where the history actually occurred. The man had 35 years to get to wherever he had to go. In 35 years, he could have crawled with two broken legs around the world. Distance simply ain’t an issue, especially if the land was broken up and changed dramatically at time of the crucifixion of Jesus.
2) If we are willing to judge the record based ONLY on what it actually says, all kinds of possibilities emerge. For example, the quote Olsen uses to counter the Meso-America claim:
“[Moroni] said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang.”
If we start from scratch, with no prior assumptions, it is perfectly reasonable to read that quote as meaning the book gives an account of the people who populated the Americas previous to Joseph Smith (generically called Native Americans) and the original people from whom those people were descended. That reading sounds stretched to our ears simply because we have assumed otherwise for so long – but the actual text speaks constantly of Nephites and Lamanites who left the originally settled land and traveled generally eastward. It isn’t a stretch at all to believe that “Lehites” might have been populating the Americas for centuries during the time of the Book of Mormon and for centuries afterward. It fits the overall statements in the Book of Mormon quite nicely, actually – although it isn’t proven by the account in any way.
3) You speak of “rationality” – but then you turn around and discount without any attempt at explanation the fact that Malay (or other possibilities) actually are FAR more rational when it comes to many of the apparent anachronisms if Meso-America is the location. That simply isn’t fair, and it isn’t rational. If many of the “textual problems” are solved with another location, that location deserves serious consideration.
4) The early members of the Church, including Joseph himself, seemed to have all kinds of incorrect assumptions about the Book of Mormon – largely because they didn’t “study” it much as a historical text or “proof text”. They used it as a witness of the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith – as a religious record, not to understand the history within it. If, in fact, the civilization descended from Lehi lived primarily elsewhere, but many of them migrated eventually to the Americas – and if, to the people recording the main record, “the Americas” were unknown as anything other than “the isles of the sea” (which is no stretch at all, since even much later Europeans originally thought exactly like that), the insurmountable obstacles pretty much disappear, imo.
Again, I am not claiming the Malay theory is correct. I just think it can’t be dismissed by any of the reasons I’ve heard thus far – especially when Moroni had 35 years to get where he ended up burying the plates. Physical distance fades into insignificance when so much time is available – and when going somewhere away from his native civilization (where he no longer would have been hunted) would have allowed him to live in peace and relative comfort for much of that time if he had chosen to do so.
Author
Ed,
My reason for adding the hypothesis question in the first place was because you said the intent of Malay was to show the BoM is ahistorical. This is a fallacy on your part.
So, if these artifacts were found in Malay, they would not only prove the BoM is historical, but that the Malay geography is correct. Now I’m not claiming Malay is correct–just pointing out the fallacy of your previous reasoning. Sorry you got lost in the logic.
Heretic, not only are you leading, but you are slippery slope. Sorry you got lost in your fallacies.
Ed: “I only care what the Book of Mormon text says.”
That’s the problem, though: we don’t have the Book of Mormon text, only a translation of it by a prophet (the same prophet whose statements about geography you discount. As much as we want it to be, the English version of the Book of Mormon is not a primary source, just as the KJV or Vulgate is not used to explore the original authors’ writings.
So it really comes down to how literally we interpret the text that we do have. It sounds like you place a lot of stock in the literality of the BoM, while MH’s opinion is not as clear. There’s nothing inherently wrong with either perspective, imo, as long as it doesn’t force us into a dogmatic position, the defense of which becomes more and more impassioned and desperate.
Fascinating discussion today, though. Cheers, all.
Ray and fellow Maylaers, I really am done with you people. have a great day.
Author
Ed, I wish you could discuss this less emotionally, but I understand. I wish you well. Come back in a month and read this conversation again, and I hope you will understand what Ray and I are saying. And when I do a post on South America, please come back and visit again. 🙂
This is totally off topic from the current debate in the comments but does anybody know of a serious argument for a Florida model?
So how do we reconcile the Malay theory with multiple BOM references to the “land or promise,” the land “choice above all other lands?” Is Malay that land? How does it jibe with the 1 Ne 13 account of gentile colonization and christianization and battles with the motherland? How do the Jaredites fit into the narrative?
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Morgan,
I’ve never heard about anything about Florida before, but if anyone has–I’d be interested to study it!
WMP,
I will point out a reference that Ralph told me that is very interesting. Thailand means “Land of the Free”, which certainly makes an interesting reference to the “land of liberty” spoken of in the Book of Mormon.
I just decided to verify this, and here is what it says in Wikipedia on Thailand.
“The word Thai (ไทย) is not, as commonly believed, derived from the word Tai (ไท) meaning “free” in the Thai language; it is, however, the name of an ethnic group from the central plains (the Thai people).[citation needed] A famous Thai scholar argued that Tai (ไท) simply means “people” or “human being” since his investigation shows that in some rural areas the word “Tai” was used instead of the usual Thai word “khon” (คน) for people.[6] The phrase “Land of the free” is derived from the fact that the Thai are proud of the fact that Thailand is the only country in Southeast Asia never colonized by a European power.”
I will also add that Burma and Thailand share the “land northward”, while Malaysia is the “land southward.”
Thailand means “Land of the Free”: and it also means “Land of Thai [food]”. OK, so I threw in the food part, but if the Nephites and Lamanites duked it out over in S.E. Asia, at least they made delicious food while doing it.
In fact, that could be one of the biggest evidences against the Malay peninsula revisionist theory: if they lived out their lives there, why no mention of the delicious, spicy food? 🙂
Just so this is on the record, and in case Ed returns, I am NOT a “Malayer” – and I said so directly and clearly in my comment. I HATE being pigeon-holed by things I DON’T say.
Ed, I also wish you could read this less emotionally, since you totally dismissed my sincere comment without even attempting to answer it. My comment applied to ANY theory other than the Meso-American one – NOT as a claim that the Malay theory is correct. I tried to make that crystal clear, and, frankly, having re-read my comment, I think I did a good job doing so.
WMP, I agree 100% that the Manifest Destiny understanding of the early saints and the explicit references to American history are the biggest issue with a theory that positions the record outside of the Americas. However, as I said in my first comment, if we start from scratch and deal solely with the actual words of the Book of Mormon, it’s not all that difficult to construct very reasonable responses to those questions – especially if we accept the idea that there were Lehite and Jaredite descendants scattered over the isles of the sea over time.
The Book of Mormon makes it clear that Nephi, Mormon and Moroni ALL of them saw revelations extending into the future and including our time. It is clear that ALL of them saw the events that led to the Restoration in the United States. It is clear that ALL of them knew Joseph would live in North America – that their account would need to end up in what would become known as “New York”. It also is clear that ALL of them knew the people reading the text initially would be “Americans”. IF, and again I repeat, IF many of their own descendants had migrated to the Americas and the isle of the Pacific Ocean by the time the record was revealed to Joseph, then the Americas would be included in the “lands of promise” kept hidden from the rest of the world in order to facilitate the Restoration of the Gospel.
I need to repeat again that I am NOT a proponent of the Malay theory. I find it fascinating and worth examining for five main reasons:
1) It addresses the anachronism issue extremely well.
2) It is very easy to justify geographically and demographically, including the language, place name and genealogy factors. (Also, un-discussed thus far, there are some interesting examples of languages in the general area – like Japanese – that are modern equivalents of the structure of Reformed Egyptian described in the Book of Mormon.)
3) The Book of Mormon speaks of multiple lands of promise, with the unifying factor being “the isles of the sea” – and the Americas classify as “the isles of the sea” from every “ancient” perspective.
4) It is quite easy to reconcile the Manifest Destiny question, once the possibility is accepted, in a way that is not inconsistent with the text itself.
5) I believe there are SERIOUS problems with the Meso-America theory.
I feel the same way about ANY other theories that have reasonable foundations. I think any such theory deserves serious consideration, simply because I don’t believe the text of the book itself provides enough information to say conclusively one way or another.
SteveS’s point is valid. Issues with historicity could be due to mistranslation (the process is pretty sketchy as described) or JS infusing his own understanding into the text.
And I just have to say that J.Ro and I have a valid point, too – sci-fi is only “fantasy” until it’s reality. In the 1960s, people scoffed at those tiny little communicators Spock and Kirk used, but now they are way bigger than many of our cell phones, which were modeled after the communicators used on the show. Science fiction is the exploration of scientific ideas within fiction, but if they have no basis in scientific theory, they are not sci-fi. To state that some things are rational, natural law and priesthood power (resurrection, being swallowed by a fish, a talking donkey for crying out loud) and other things are irrational fantasy (wormhole between Malay and upstate NY or something similar) is just selection bias. I suppose the three Nephites could have transported the plates from Malay to NY, had almost 2 millenia to do it, and would have still had time to meet up with John the Revelator for a nice lunch. Yeah, that’s far more rational than my wormhole idea. Obviously I’m the ahistorical nut job.
Oh, and FWIW, I was totally unaware of the Malay theory prior to now, so I’m no “Malayer” either, if such a thing exists. But it does have some interesting aspects. Personally, I think it’s cool to explore the different possibilities. If nothing else, it keeps our minds open and our thinking fresh and only draws us closer to the text.
“The phrase ‘Land of the free’ is derived from the fact that the Thai are proud of the fact that Thailand is the only country in Southeast Asia never colonized by a European power.”
That is fascinating.
#43 – Steve, yeah, you’d think they would have passed on a recipe or two. Jello is fine in a pinch, but really . . .
If Moroni can pop in and out from another dimension, or from wherever he came from, to Joseph Smith’s bedroom, then I have no problem with him bringing the plates to Hill Cumorah from anywhere else in space and time. I’m totally for another planet in our universe or else another universe entirely. Words like horses, swords, etc. were used to describe whatever were the closest analogs to those things in the society and ecosystem of the Nephites wherever they may have been.
To me it is always misguided to look for scientific proof of spiritual truths. The spirit confirms that it’s true. So what can science add or take away from that? The answer is “Nothing”.
Ray, I can’t do anything sometimes without getting emotional because I have an anxiety disorder and I have to back out sometimes. I will think about answering things a bit more tomorrow if this thing is still going.
Ed (if you’re still around),
Okay, magic was probably the wrong word to mention (in jest, I should point out). I think that we may be thinking the same thing, but I got you on the defensive too quickly. You talk about “natural law”; if we’re understanding this the same, everything that happens, miracle or not, is through natural laws which God has set up. Am I correct that this is what you’re talking about? If it is, are you of the opinion/belief that we know everything there is to know about natural law? That is what I was trying to point out. Miracles don’t occur right and left, but they do occur. And as far as I am aware we don’t know how all miracles occur. I think there’s a solid chance that they may be completely natural in a natural law sense. But God didn’t give us a knowledge about everything, did he? So when I talk about the possibility of just about anything related to *this Book of Mormon geography matter*, please understand a few things to keep in mind with anything I say on the topic:
1) It’s just speculation. Hopefully it’s not been taken seriously enough to completely ruin something. I don’t think it has. But I also don’t think that being speculation means that it’s completely ludicrous. Also, notice I never mentioned anything about stargates.
2) I really don’t mean to offend. I can see that this is a much more serious and personal matter to you than it is to me. Sorry if you feel I’ve disrespected your view.
3) I find it an interesting but not essential topic to investigate. I don’t put that much stock in any theory about this that I’ve read. Just like you don’t need to prove your faith to me, I don’t need geographic evidence to believe what the book says (to be clear: I’m not saying you do need geographic evidence). I just find it interesting and I feel that merits the opportunity to involve myself in a casual discussion (that’s what it seemed to be at the beginning).
4) Without a complete knowledge of the workings of God’s natural law, I sincerely think that any serious attempt to “prove” the Book of Mormon real will be met with disappointment. You are welcome to civilly disagree.
“sci-fi is only “fantasy” until it’s reality”
Well-stated, Hawkgrrl! Excellent way to put it. I think there are a lot of things that are possible, even likely, that we as a society scoff at.
Ray, I’ll give this one more shot because I’m a sucker for getting sucked back in I guess. Is it rational to say that Salt Lake City is New Mexico because they both have buildings? No. The Maylay thing is irrational precisely because it fits so well. And that’s why Malayers and those who are open minded about it (ok you aint a maylayer, but you are talking as if you think it is plausible somehow) overlook the most important piece, and that is that it is only on the other side of the planet from where its supposed to be. No small obstacle. And no, this isn’t just about a reading that we didn’t read right. This is because we DID read it right for all those years. Just because Mesoamerica isn’t perfect in your conception, it has the least amount of problems for any place in the Americas. That is the key. Every place else is MORE of a stretch, even if Mesoamerica is a stretch. And I tell you it is not a stretch. It has “THIS IS THE PLACE” plastered all over it. It has a real urban society, something that no place else in the Americas have for the right time period. The question of Cumorah is different than the question of where the urban society was. Cumorah was simply on the fringes of the cultural influence. We are looking for an urban society in the Americas, not in the Malay peninsula. And there is only one place in America that answers that description, and it is Mesoamerica.
J.Ro, we are closer to agreeing than I thought. On the other hand, the book of Mormon has been proven by real evidence. The only ambiguity lies in the fact that those that see those evidences will never agree on the identification of them. For those that are believers, Mayan culture is Book of Mormon Culture. It is the only Culture that is book of Mormon culture. Great Lakes culture is Maya culture transplanted, which is why Cumorah is there.
Ed, could you provide some of the evidence you claim (some reputable links that present it, maybe)? Like I said, this isn’t my passion and I’m not here to start an argument, but I would be interested in your proof. MH presented some potential evidence for the Malay theory, I’d like to see what you’re comparing it to. And I promise I won’t come back and give a word of argument about it. Just a matter of curiosity.
Ed – you seem to know a lot about the MesoAmerican LG theory. Having been to the Yucatan, I agree that there are cultural markers that seem to fit. However, it’s not quite a smoking gun either. My question to you would be how you personally account for the missing items: chariots/wheels, swords, horses, elephants? Do you subscribe to the SteveS mistranslation theory, or do you think these items will yet be found or do you have some other way to explain these things? For me, I am always struck by the absence of wheel technology. The wheel seems pretty basic & universal. Hmmm.
Hawkgrrrl,
People tend to focus too much on what hasn’t been found versus what has been found, and discount what has been found as if it is of no consequence. Its a miracle that what has been found has been found. Not long ago, people were saying how they would never find cement. Now there is cement that is recognized to be all over. You will never have a perfect dataset. And you will never find a perfect dataset in the Bible lands either. There are plenty of missing evidences there, such as evidence of an exodus, lack of evidence in the red sea of a passage. The fall of Jericho doesn’t date right. Not long ago, people were doubting that David was real until they found evidence of him. They swore there was no city of David in Jerusalem and now they found it. Don’t get so hung up on things that haven’t been dug up, and look at what is before your eyes.
Ed, just so this is even more crystal clear:
If I had to posit a location at gun point, I would posit South America and Central America – not Malaysia. I also would posit that the Jaredite heritage validates the most recent DNA testing as decent evidence for the Book of Mormon – and, in fact, DNA issues might be the very reason God insisted that the book of Ether be included in the record. I mean that.
However, what I’m saying is that the assumption that the central record occurred in the Americas is just that – an assumption. I think it’s a solid one, but I am open to other reasonable possibilities simply because the Book of Mormon itself doesn’t have enough evidence to state anything conclusively, imo – and since I believe that, I believe no theory should be dismissed out of hand when a reasonable explanation can be articulated. I’m no expert on the Malay theory, but what I have read is interesting and reasonable to me. What I want are reasoned rebuttals, not, “We all know it really was Meso-America.” No, we don’t.
Also, I agree totally that there is lots of GREAT, objective evidence for the Book of Mormon. Unfortunately, the vast majority of it relates to the account of the Old World travels and, ironically, the Jaredites. I think those aspects actually bolster the authenticity even more than the difficulty pinpointing the Lehite groups, since those are the elements that would have been the most outside of the information available to Joseph and his associates.
Finally, I believe STRONGLY that there is NOTHING that is totally objective and intellectual. EVERYTHING is emotional to someone, and we need to honor that in our discussions. I didn’t mean anything in my comments to be dismissive, condescending, ridiculing or combative in any way.
Well Ray, then more power to you in your beliefs. I’m glad you feel strongly about them.
Ed – “Don’t get so hung up on things that haven’t been dug up, and look at what is before your eyes.” I’m not hung up on anything. I just wanted to know your assessment as someone who has studied the MesoAmerican LG theory more closely. Sounds like your opinion is that evidence will continue to turn up to support that theory. I don’t have a personal stake in any of the theories over another (although the hemispheric one really does seem passé). Thanks for clarifying your stance.
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Ed,
Let’s remember what the Book of Mormon says, and what it doesn’t say. It doesn’t say “Lehi landed in [NY, or Guatemala, or Peru, or Chile, or Malay, or any other place].” It says they arrived in the “Promised Land”. Well, if Nephi had only been more specific, we wouldn’t have 100 competing theories.
Now, why does everyone believe that Nephi landed in the Americas? Because Joseph Smith made statements to that effect. Now, Joseph Smith obviously believed in a Hemispheric Model. Now, everyone who disagrees with the Hemispheric Model has to discount what Joseph said, including you–a proponet of Mesoamerica. So, if one can discount the Hemispheric model as scientifically deficient, then one should be open to all other possibilities, including Florida, Africa, Malay, Mesoamerica, Great Lakes, or any other possible locations. Ed, have you ever heard or studied of this theory before? I guess the thing I find troubling is that you seem to dismiss without having a single reference to why it is unsound. Perhaps it is unsound, but please provide specifics.
Now, I had not heard that cement has been found in Mesoamerica. This is a significant find. Can you provide a link so I can learn more about it? (For the record, I don’t claim to be an expert in this topic, but just a student who enjoys the subject.)
Malaya???
To start with, how does one reconcile Moroni’s statement to Joseph Smith, delivered in the north east corner of North America:
“He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent” (JS-H 1:34).
Moroni was certainly in a position to know.
Theodore
You guys have had way too much fun without me!
I just wanted to throw my two cents worth in here.
MH post #32- “What if they were at least as convincing as Nahom…”
Just for the record, Nahom is not very impressive to me as good evidence for the authenticity of the BoM. It may be good evidence to show that someone helped JS write the book, but not evidence of its historicity.
One last point, if we’re employing Occam’s razor here, the best evidence I’ve seen puts it in the Great Lakes area with JS writing this as 19th century inspired fiction using the geography he was familiar with. That answers all the problems with geography, anthropology, linguistics, metals, and alike and seems far more reasonable. But then again, who really uses logic and evidence to decide religious beliefs????
Please continue with the discussion… 🙂
#59 – Theodore, please read the post and comments before asking questions that are addressed in both places. Hit and run comments that appear to be totally disconnected from everything else simply are annoying.
Ed, I honestly don’t know how to respond, so I’m bowing out of a personal discussion with you. I’ve tried every way imaginable to say I don’t know the answer and want constructive input, and instead I get what amounts to a condescending pat on the head. I’m sorry you see my input that way, since I truly and sincerely was hoping for a stimulating conversation. When we finally see clearly, you can say, “I told you so” – and I will respond, “Yes, you did – and I told you so, as well.” Frankly, at that time, I doubt either of us will care that much about the exact location.
MH–
I admit I’m not a huge fan of this subject. But it can be fun.
I didn’t realize there were more than a hundred theories. That alone was worth the read. It confirms my idea that we as fallen beings get distracted by trivial matters to the exclusion of the weightier ones.
There is one point that I wonder about in your post. The gold plates tipping the scales at 200 lbs seems to be more than even a husky farmer from the 1800 could handle with one hand, or even two, while running. If I recall correctly, isn’t there statements by those who lifted the plates saying they weighted in at 40 to 60 lbs?
Sort of off topic, but here’s a question anyway. The early Mormons, including Joseph Smith seem to make America the home of Lamanites. Oliver Cowdrey, and I believe Hyrum Smith, were sent on missions to the local (N. American) indians in fullfilment of Book of Mormon promises to the Lamanites. Lastly, on my mission I was literally chewed out by a member following a discussion he accompanied me on, because I ignorantly told the investigator that Moroni buried the plates in Cummorah (N.Y.) where Joseph Smith eventually unearthed them. He actually posited Hawkgrrrl’s theory that the plates had been in one way or another “transported” from Costa Rica, though he didn’t say wormhole.
Here is my challenge, and I realize that this only my logic. If God had the gumption to “transport” the plates, why would he have gone through all of the effort to relocate them in a hill as though they had been buried there anciently in some form of cement. Why wouldn’t he have just had Moroni meet him on the hill, where he would then be presented with the plates? Why the pretense? Because of this I have a hard time accepting any theory which does not allow for Moroni to have buried the plates where Joseph Smith is claimed to have found them.
Perhaps a second question. I have searched, but I am not aware of any research surrounding the hill cummorah, particularly locating the cement box where the plates are said to have been buried. While such evidence if found could certainly be debatable, I have never understood why on the tours we can’t go to the big rock and look into the hole. Does anybody have any information regarding this?
It ain’t there, Cowboy. The explanations range from, “That would be too easy,” to, “That proves it’s all a hoax” – and include everything in between.
Fwiw, I just don’t accept the grand deception required for God to have inspired delusions for Joseph OR created a fake resting place for the plates. I think the plates and other artifacts were real, and I think Moroni carried them (40-80 lbs.) to their eventual resting place at some point – but I have no idea when. It could have been in 421 AD; he could have moved them or repositioned them in the late 1700’s. I don’t know, and I really don’t care when it comes down to it.
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Theodore,
I tried to address your question in the original post (see 2a). Also, we’ve been hashing that exact question in comments #3, 26, 34, with some interesting speculations in 18 and 21.)
Doug,
You do like to rain on a parade, don’t you? :p But, you do bring up a good point. Any good scientist should also look at the possibility of the BoM as fiction. Regarding Nahom, have you seen my post? I thought there was some pretty interesting work if you’d like to look at it.
This is a technical question heretic: How do you embed links in the text? I have to go old school in my blog posts because I cannot figure out how to make a word link to previous research. That makes it rather difficult to refer to previous research without bogging down my blog posts. If your willing to indulge me, maybe you can message me with somme instructions. Thanks.
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Jared,
Regarding the weight of the plates, I don’t know. I was quoting Olsen when I said that. Perhaps someone can provide a reference to tell us better. However, Joseph did tell of other plates, so I don’t know that Moroni only had one set of plates.
Cowboy, my comment 3 gives Sorenson’s Two Cumorah theory, so your mission message is in line with Sorenson. As for the pretense, Rough Stone Rolling discusses Joseph’s treasure digging and makes the case that treasure seeking was the method Joseph and his father used to understand spiritual things. In Bushman’s words, Joseph Sr wouldn’t have believed Jr except for an angel story.
The whole treasure digging is an important part of the story. Joseph was part of a group that agreed to split any treasure found 12 ways. When Joseph didn’t share the golden plates, his friends tried to steal them. Perhaps they dug up the hill looking for treasure, destroying a stone box in the process just as grave robbers in Egypt plundered the pyramids. Obviously a stone box wouldn’t be easy to locate if it still exists. It’s not like we can use a metal detector to find it.
MH,
I wrote most of this post on another thread so please read it with the idea of my reaction to Nahom as evidence rather than a rebuttal to your paper on the subject. (I did read it.) Had Nahom been discovered in the 20th century instead of the 18th century as Daniel Peterson seems to imply, the evidence would carry a little more weight. The fact of the matter is, Nahom was documented on maps at least 80 years prior to the BoM publication and as anyone knows that works with maps, map makers tend to copy other maps. I don’t know if JS had access to one of the more expensive maps of Arabia or not, but good maps had it on there as well as Carsten Niebuhr’s writing about Arabia describing the area were Bountiful could have been. So your argument now has to be that JS didn’t have access to a good map of the area. I believe he had help from someone to write the book which opens all kinds of possibilities as to who else may have had a good map. Dartmouth University had the D’Anville map as well as the Niebuhr map and writings translated into English as early as 1804. (If you read below, you can see who were students at that school.)
Even the best evidence for the historicity of the BoM, according to Terryl Given’s (Nahom), is not near as convincing in light of the facts documented interestingly enough by FARMS. Several articles written by FARMS verify how many people knew about Nahom in the 1700’s. According to FARMS, the better maps of the Arabian Peninsula had the location of NHM pinpointed.
“Of course, not all maps of Arabia between the years 1751 and 1814 recorded the location of Nahom. In fact, it is generally found only on the finest and most expensive maps created by the best cartographers and published by the finest printers. In my searches I found countless maps of Arabia with no reference to Nahom or anything like it. Thus, it is somewhat amazing that the first modern map of the Arabian Peninsula, created by D’Anville in 1751, did record the location of this often ignored or unrecognized district. Furthermore, that same map inspired the Danes to send an expedition to the region to fill in the missing information, and the only survivor was the cartographer, Carsten Niebuhr. Not only did he engrave a place called Nahom on his map but he also gave us more details of the area in his journal. These two maps and the ones that followed all give testimony to Lehi’s epic journey almost two thousand years earlier.” (http://farms.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=17&num=1&id=464)
Let me take you back to the assertion of the Joker’s word print study. They worked to show that Rigdon/Spaulding most likely wrote the BoM. I know we went round and round about how valid this study was and I don’t want to ride that marry-go-round again. Dartmouth University had many of these good maps in its library at the time that Spaulding, Rigdon, and Ethan Smith attended there. Both Spaulding and Smith wrote about people coming from the old world to the new. It’s fair to conclude that they would have done some research into writing their books and therefore the inclusion of “Nahom” and for that matter “Bountiful” is not remarkable if one concludes that one or both of these men contributed to the BoM either willingly or unknowingly.
If that’s the best evidence for the BoM, then there is no evidence at all that can’t be explained scientifically. Even if we assume that JS wrote the book without help, the fact that this area was know and written about in several books about Arabia (see FARMS) means there is a real possibility that he could have gotten his hands on the information.
I enjoyed some of your comments. Thank you for your interest in the Malay Theory. In the introduction to the Book of Mormon it says it is the most nearly correct book on earth. So when I read that in the Land of Promise they had horses, cows, pigs, sheep, goats, elephants, mining, metallurgy, metal tools, metal weapons, silk, linen, leoprosy, flocks, herds, grape vineyards, wine presses, an abundance of grape wine, Hebrew writing, wheels, chariots, barley, wheat, gold plates, and many others too numerous to mention… we should be able to conclude that Joseph Smith translated these correctly with Divine intervention. That means that the Land of Promise should have them in it. None of the Meso American Hypotheses have them to support them. This was a problem to me so I began looking elsewhere. Much to my amazement the Malay Hypothesis provides a setting for all of these items and many more plus many more important avantages… including a much more feasible voyage from the Middle East, a peninsular setting, a north/south orientation, a genuine narrow neck of land,other topography which matches extremely well with Book of Mormon accounts.
In the Malay Theory, I also propose that people from the Malay area migrated eastward across the Pacific Ocean (the uninhabited quarter). American Hypotheses incorrectly propose that the Polynesians migrated westward. The small groups from the Malay area landed in many places in the Americas. So please note that the Malay Hypothesis does NOT rule out America being a Land of Promise. The amount of attention paid to transporting the plates to NY is amazing to me. There have been “100 Hypotheses” proposed and EVERY ONE of them (except “one”) (and there is almost nothing else to support that Hypothesis) has no way of explaining how the plates got there. I have a way to propose how they got there but Sorenson has no better idea. So I don’t understand the negativity against the Malay Hypothesis with regard to the plates arriving in NY.
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Morgan, I’ll try to answer your question the best I can for hyperlinks. I’m going to add put these characters on separate lines to that they are recognized as text rather than computer code, so put all these on the same line. To start a hyperlink in a comment you need the first special character which is a carat, so here’s how it goes
everything you type here will be blue hyperlink
I hope that is understandable. If not, just email me at mormon heretic at gmail dot com and I can send you and easy text file. (I’m sure others have the same question.)
Author
sorry Morgan, everything I typed got confused for a hyperlink–just send me an email, and I’ll send you a text file.
Doug,
So you’re saying that 3rd grade educated Joseph Smith is hanging out in the Dartmouth Library looking at maps of Arabia, yet he didn’t know that Jerusalem had a wall around the city? How did he do this with all the farm work and treasure digging he was doing? Isn’t Dartmouth in NH, not Vermont or New York?
As for the Spaulding Manuscript, I just read a book on Sidney Rigdon that went into great detail discrediting the Spaulding Manuscript theory. Perhaps I will check the book out of the library again and put a post up. Rigdon as the author of the Book of Mormon was thoroughly discredited. I’ll start working on that post, and we can discuss that theory–it is off topic here.
I must admit that I’m not cued up on BoM geography scholarship, but has anyone ever speculated that the plates were deposited in the NY hill Cumorah _after_ Moroni’s natural life? After all, JS reportedly gave the plates to Moroni after having finished translating them, and it was Moroni that showed them to the 3 witnesses. If the plates don’t exist anywhere on Earth at the present, could they also have been “taken up” and deposited in NY so that JS could find them? This would clear up any difficulties of transporting plates over long distances (either from Central or South America, or the Malay Peninsula or Africa or whereever.
I admit it seems silly to have an angelic Moroni bury the plates in a concrete box in a hillside rather than simply handing them to JS for translation, but perhaps the scenario helped the money-digger Smiths accept the historicity of the plates because they were acquired in patterns they had expected to find historic treasures.
Don’t you think it is rather odd that there are numerous articles super thrilled about the NHM they found on a rock… but a theory that has MANY similarities to the Book of Mormon is immediately dismissed or ignored? I wonder why so many say such dismissive things about a theory it is obvious they have not read. Many of the things discussed above are explained with scientific references, or references to the scriptures, or references to others who are trying to find where Book of Mormon events have taken place. Dr Olsen isn’t just making a fantasy story. He is trying to prove the Book of Mormon is true. Since he is a scientist (and graduated from BYU– Salutatorian & has a Masters & Doctorate from Cornell University in Chemistry… he understands scientific resarch) he believes that any theory that has even one problem should be revisited. He has found 220 reasons that Mala works and Meso doesn’t. That is overwhelming evidence. As someone said, Just because Joseph had a preconceived notion that the BofM happened in the Americas… doesn’t make it so. He was a man and had his own opinions. Even Sorenson doesn’t believe in the Hemispheric Model. Sorenson admits he hasn’t found evidence. The Beauty of the Mala Hypothesis is that it works in so many ways and ties so many scientific evidences together. Please download his original manuscript (1995) and read it and then comment more! Ray & MH & others had some great comments, but some comments show that people have read the word “Malay” and thought it abhorant and would not read more because, of course, it happened in America, Joseph said so. Remember… Joseph had his own opinions, they weren’t always from God’s mouth. Moroni did not bury his plates in the Hill Cumorah, Mormon did (Mormon 6:6). Moroni left with his. Amazingly, Dr Olsen found that a group of people left Malaysia about 400 AD (time of the last battles) and traveled with plants, animals, beliefs, musical instruments… and landed in Madagascar. They named a town Moroni, island Comoros(Cumorah?) and another town Morondava… It is easy for one to imagine that Moroni left from there in a boat with a bunch of gold plates and sailed to NY… (and perhaps a group of them landed there and that is the Eastern American group some talk of?????? who knows??? That is easier for me to believe than Moroni carried heavy gold plates and food & “a sleeping bag?” etc… and traveled all across the USA with no beasts of burden, wheels, or carts…) It seems like I say the same stuff over & over. Please read MH’s other blog & links he has provided. Thanks to those of you that tried to discuss the theory. I realize that you aren’t claiming it as your own……yet. 🙂
Let’s please hold off rehashing the authorship question in this thread. I really like the idea, however, of MH doing a post explicitly about that topic.
MH,
In fairness to the discussion, neither you nor I know how educated JS was with a school teacher for a father and a family that deeply valued knowledge. By the way, I think Emma’s statement about JS not knowing about the wall around Jerusalem says more about Emma’s gullibility than it does about Joseph’s actual knowledge. Come-on, this was a family that studied the bible almost fanatically. To be honest, I’m surprised you stooped to this kind of defense, your better than that my friend.
Whether you buy into the idea of Rigdon helping with the BoM or not, is not relevant to the discussion. The fact is, Nahom was known and written about. The fact that JS put it in the BoM shows that either he or someone helping him, had access to a good map. You can say he didn’t know, but that’s just your opinion, not evidence for the historicity of the BoM. Perhaps you should do a google search on D’Anville and Niebuhr. I think you’ll find that their work was used lots of places. Not just at Dartmouth…
On a more positive note, I think you should write about the Rigdon/Spaulding connection. It’s only a theory after all; you and I both like to think we’re smarter than the average apologist. I would just hope you would apply the same scrutiny to the historicity of the BoM as you use to dismiss Rigdon as a possible source for it.
Good points Voni. Perhaps its only “far out” because of the dominant perception among Mormon culture right now. I will add the originial thesis to my reading list.
Sorry Ray, I didn’t see your post until after I posted. For another time then…
Thanks Morgan. You are right about the dominant perception. It is so hard to get past that. The average Mormon sees the word Malay and won’t even read the theory because it is so ridiculous that anyone would even dare suggest a place outside of America. The people that don’t like Mormons don’t like the Malay Theory because it is trying to prove the BofM is true. It is so hard to get anyone to read about it. It takes someone who is willing to think “outside the box” (as all the famous inventors, scientists, etc… that were willing to put two things together in a different way or think of something in a way different from an accepted theory) Just think how much trouble Galileo was in when he even dared to suggest that the earth was not flat (as a certain church insisted: “the Bible says “four corners of the earth” The earth is flat. How could it be round if there are 4 corners?!!” In those days it was very brave to suggest a theory that was not the accepted knowledge. Actually I think Dr Olsen is very brave also to try to promote his theory. Imagine the frustration and …. It is a good thing we aren’t living during the Inquisition.
MH:
Wow! You really got a popular discussion going here by expanding your blog posts from your own site. I’ve immensely enjoyed reading the above discussion, and hope people will link to the original discussions on your site as well, since I don’t want to retype the discussion we had there. Excellent work on your part and excellent discussion from all of the posters here.
What a fascinating discussion group. My first blog post…here goes:
Clearly many prophets including Moroni whose dad abridged records knew that in the Last Days a prophet named Joseph would receive the plates (2 Ne 3:7).
If that is the case, and Moroni had 35 years of travel time, he could very well have been instructed to go to New York from great distances so the plates could be found by the latter-day Joseph as prophesied.
In that line of thinking, Malay isn’t a stretch logically. It is only a stretch in that it goes against what I’ve been taught my whole mormon life about the book being about ancient inhabitants of the Americas. I would think some church leader, prophet or apostle, would have corrected that part of the title page by now if it was really off the mark.
If Joseph was 14 + and thought the BofM happened in America… Then it is even more amazing that so many things seem to match in Malasia/Burma/Thailand! To me that gives me shivvers thinking about Joseph actually translating the gold plates to match a historical setting (that wasnt researched by him, wasn’t something he could have learned about from his parents or teachers… because he if it was something he learned he would have been trying to think of some things that matched America if he was faking it.) If Mala turns out to be right. It Proves Joseph was a prophet, there is a God, Moroni gave Joseph the plates….etc etc etc. …Why would a New Englander name a place Moron?
Joseph also would not have been able to know of Moroni in the Madagascar area. From what I have read, it was not on maps at that time (1800s). He certainly would not have known that people went there from a land with similar place names & geographical features (to the BofM)… 400AD… you get my drift… Even if there was a way for him to figure that out… He thought it was America that was the main Land of Promise…
Remember, Joseph did not get to translate all of the gold plates… some were taken from him. Where/What did it talk about in the rest? Perhaps ?????
Author
SteveS, I’m not aware of any scholarship claiming the plates were transported (except of Hawkgrrrl and J.Ro.) 🙂 That’s an interesting idea, but I think it would be easier to put the transport idea in the realm of miracle than science based on current scholarship and JSH at present.
Doug, I have about 12 ideas for posts right now, all requiring some research, but I’ll try to get to the authorship issue soon so we can tangle later on that. In the mean time, you might find my 5 posts on Sidney Rigdon interesting. Part 4 is the juiciest, dealing with polygamy. Part 5 was my favorite, dealing with Sidney’s attempts at organizing a church and ordaining women to the Melchizedek priesthood (claiming Emma Smith was the 1st), so I encourage you to read those. I’ve already written about 8000 words on Sidney, and didn’t take time to address the Solomon Spaulding manuscript, but I promise to devote that post to you. Here’s part 1 if you’re interested (mostly on JST). The book I read doesn’t really portray Joseph or Sidney in a flattering light.
Voni,
I agree there is much to the book that makes it incredible to think a young farm boy could have made it all up and thought up more names and places and details than even Shakespeare could have done.
However, it seems to me that there was detail about building ships to come to the promised lands, and the zealots who built ships to go explore other islands never to be heard of again … but no mention of Moroni or others building a ship to go bury the plates in a new bountiful land.
KG McB: If one of the Prophets wasn’t praying for an answer for that, then it might not have come to him… (A Prophet prayed about the Black issue & got an answer to change things) They did change the wording in the beginning of the BofM recently –that fits perfectly with the Malay Theory.
If your great grandfather tells your grandfather something, and he tells it to your father, and he tells it to you… And Your great grandfather was sure his information was true because someone told him that was very honest and reliable… But it turned out to be slightly off ???… No one did anything wrong… There was just a misunderstanding and it was passed on down the generations. All of the men believed it was true. What if something in your experience or some new discovery was made and it turned out to be off slighly? Your grandfathers are still good, honest, righteous men…
A friends mom’s mom’s college roomate always licked the margarine wrapper when she took it off the butter. She was asked why… She said, “‘Cause my Mom did it.” So she was asked to ask her mom. It turned out that they did it in the Depression because margarine was so scarce. . . So why still do it?
Hapi,
I guess that is possible, but if they were astute enough to make this change:
Title page: (both versions)
1830: “…by Joseph Smith, jr., author and proprietor”
Today: “translated by Joseph Smith, jr.”
I would think they would also come to see the claim of ancient Americans are contained in the book, if unfounded, would also need an update and to change that. That is a much bigger doctrinal point than if Joseph’s title in the credits is correct or not.
Maybe not, but I would think so. My point is that it is regularly taught to missionaries and from missionaries to the masses and someone would have picked up that it should no longer be taught that way if it was incorrect.
As a missionary, I was told not to teach or make reference to blacks are descendants of Cain, even though prior apostles taught that, because we don’t have any evidence of such.
As we more and more knowledge and revelation is given to understand the words of God, we increase our knowledge on these matters, we don’t just teach things because that is what we’ve been told by our fathers. We build and learn and seek the truth and a perfect knowledge of things.
Author
re: #85, Maybe she likes the taste of Margarine. My kids do… 😉
“SteveS, I’m not aware of any scholarship claiming the plates were transported (except of Hawkgrrrl and J.Ro.)”
Scholars indeed! Someday we will show you all… Who will be shaking their head in disbelief then?! 😉
MH, in your point: Joseph Smith History 1:34 “[Moroni] said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang.” Did this ever really get addressed in this discussion? I just went back through this whole discussion and can’t seem to find much of an answer to the question. This is probably my biggest hang-up on this theory; I can’t see why Moroni would lie about who the book was about. Did I miss something in all this back and forth?
J.Ro,
I don’t think you missed anything, or else I missed it too. That seems pretty cut and dry from Moroni’s mouth. It isn’t that Malay is inconceivable to me, only that it is against the doctrine of the church, from everything I’ve read.
“Did I miss something in all this back and forth?”
Yes, J.Ro. 🙂
MH addressed it briefly at the end of the post. Olsen talks about it openly. I also talked about it in #34-2).
In Olsen’s theory he emphasizes, “and the source from whence they sprang” That usually gets left off. It is probably why Joseph assumed? it “all” happened in America… The BofM doesn’t talk much about the Middle east… so perhaps the point is that they Sprang from there and then traveled to Malaysia (a land of promise) (they were to be scattered to ALL their lands of promise–plural) then Sprang to the uninhabited quarter (where man had not been & would be kept from knowledge of man –and was not known of for a long time–European Explorers finally found & did not know about. Didn’t someone just talk about they even thought America was an island too?) and they went on to America… one group (?) landed in Chile, one in Peru, one in Guatemala (etc…) Things have been found there (helps Mala) but they are the wrong time period for MESO. (see other posts & book) and so Nephites landed in a variety of places… so America is a land of Promise too (plural). And there are an ancient group of Nephites that landed here (there were already a lot here from NE Asia that came over 20,000 years ago (Bering Strait)
Some people just can’t handle that USA isn’t the Land of Promise… Liberty… in the BofM… so Malay can’t be right… But USA isn’t in MESO either. (see reference to Thailand before)
If there are small pockets of Nephites around America… it is possible that they have the correct DNA & they haven’t been tested yet (that is not part of Olsen’s theory…as far as i know… i just threw it out…) Who knows everything? I don’t.
Of course they tell folks when there is a change… (ie blacks & priesthood) but what if they haven’t figured it out yet? or thought to pray about it yet or??? Did everyone notice the little article in SLC paper telling about the recent wording change? Perhaps people in “you name country” haven’t heard it yet.
The recent wording change was something about …instead of saying ‘they are the inhabitants of this continent…’ it says ‘they are AMONG the inhabitants…’ Who remembers the exact statement & where it is? I have to get up for work in 3 hours. Best wishes.
Voni, the original Introduction was not part of the original translation. It was added when the book was published to explain the book to others.
The original wording was:
“After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principle ancestors of the American Indians.”
The new wording is:
“After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are among the ancestors of the American Indians.”
I have no problem with the original wording IF it meant the principle (meaning “most important”) ancestors, but that’s not what was meant when the Introduction was written. The new wording reflects everything we’ve come to understand over the last few decades, especially when the Limited Geography model is considered – and when the destruction of the Jaredite nation isn’t interpreted to mean the death of ALL the descendants of the Jaredites.
If the Jaredites originated in Northeast Asia (as Nibley believed, and which I personally think is plausible) and splintered widely (as all long-lasting peoples eventually do), it is easy to see how there also could have been many of them who ended up scattered all throughout the Americas – escaping the final destruction of the nation, just as many “Nephites” escaped the final destruction of their nation. Given how much longer the central Jaredite society/nation lasted (perhaps 3000 years), that would mean the dominant Native American DNA should be from Northeast Asia, which is what the main research indicates now. If the Lehite populations also ended up migrating to the Americas after mixing with existing Malaysian (or other) populations (and the idea of mixing with indigenous populations fits the demographic population comparisons within the Book of Mormon extremely well), then that would further establish Asian ancestry as the “primary” ancestry.
Finally, we now absolutely NO idea what the genetic heritage of Lehi’s family was except that Lehi and Ishmael were of Manasseh and Ephraim. Iow, what was their maternal ancestry, through Sariah and Ishmael’s wife? We simply have no clue. What we do know is that they didn’t consider themselves Jews, so their mothers probably weren’t Jewish – and most of the DNA research of which I have heard and which I have read looks for and identifies mitochondrial (maternal) DNA. We have NO idea what the mitochondrial DNA would be for the people of the Book of Mormon, except for the Mulekites.
My point? When we limit what we assert to nothing but what is written, we know FAR less than we generally assume.
Ray says:
“Ed, I honestly don’t know how to respond, so I’m bowing out of a personal discussion with you. I’ve tried every way imaginable to say I don’t know the answer and want constructive input, and instead I get what amounts to a condescending pat on the head.”
I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to sound condescending, but I do have strong feelings too. This is why I hate when I get sucked into these things, because I end up making myself sound bad and people not liking me.
Heretic,
You say: “Ed, have you ever heard or studied of this theory before? I guess the thing I find troubling is that you seem to dismiss without having a single reference to why it is unsound. Perhaps it is unsound, but please provide specifics.”
I just said plenty of times that the references placing the Book of Mormon in the Americas, and that the Book of Mormon places the ancient inhabitants mentioned in the book in America, by Moroni’s own mouth. I sit here scratching my head how this does not absolutely make what you are saying irrational. And here I go again, and you guys won’t like it that I called it that. I feel strongly that you guys are saying irrational things about it not being in America. I’m sorry if you don’t like the fact that I have an absolute and unbending dogmatism on that point. But it is an absolute dogmatism on that point nevertheless, and I won’t budge on that point. You are being irrational to assume there is any possibility that it is outside of America. Various possibilities and plausible things exist in America as settings. But outside of America, it is simply IMPOSSIBLE. That isn’t meant to be condescending. That is a fact. You can’t get around these absolutely plain statements.
Ed, show me ONE single reference from the Book of Mormon using the word “America.” I need chapter and verse.
SteveS (#19), Hawkgrrrl and others pointed to the concept of mistranslation by Joseph, and I want to make an argument against mistranslation.
I’m inclined to ascribe to the possibility/probability that Joseph Smith didn’t “translate” everything from the gold plates perfectly. There are numerous disclaimers made in the Book of Mormon about the frailties of men in using language to communicate the things of God
While I agree this is a good and useful tool in all scripture study, I want to show where I think it breaks down. If we look specifically at sheep in the BoM, specifically the story of Ammon guarding sheep, and assume that “sheep” is a mistranslation on the part of Joseph, we must assume that Ammon was guarding some sort of livestock.
Now Meso proponents love to point out that mountain goats were indigenous to America, and could well substitute for sheep. However, the Native Americans never had flocks of Mountain goats. In fact, they didn’t have flocks of anything. So, this opens up a whole can of worms that people like Doug G exploit, and say, “see, it’s fiction.”
On the other hand, Ammon’s story fits in very well with the Old World. Sheep were herded in Malay, dating back to the proper time, and one doesn’t have to go through all sorts of contortions to make the scripture work. It also kills the fiction argument of Doug, by providing a much more reasonable explanation.
MH, you are being silly. I tire of this nonsensical battle. Any truly reasonable person would not belabor this particular point. You know that there is nothing in the Book of Mormon that says “America” any more than the names Joseph Smith and Martin Harris are mentioned in Isaiah 29 about the prophecy of Charles Anthon and the sealed book.
Columbus:
12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and awrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land. (1 nephi 13:12)
Pilgrims/United States:
15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the bland for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.
16 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was awith them.
17 And I beheld that their mother Gentiles were gathered together upon the waters, and upon the land also, to battle against them.
18 And I beheld that the power of God was with them, and also that the wrath of God was upon all those that were gathered together against them to battle.
19 And I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles that had gone out of captivity were delivered by the power of God out of the hands of all other nations. (1 Nephi 13:15-19)
Columbus:
12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and awrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land. (1 nephi 13:12)
Pilgrims/United States:
15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and aobtain the bland for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and cbeautiful, like unto my people before they were dslain.
16 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was awith them.
17 And I beheld that their mother Gentiles were gathered together upon the waters, and upon the land also, to battle against them.
18 And I beheld that the power of God was with them, and also that the wrath of God was upon all those that were gathered together aagainst them to battle.
19 And I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles that had gone out of captivity were adelivered by the power of God out of the hands of all other nations.
THIS FRACKING CONTINENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
JS-H 1: 34:
34 He said there was a abook deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of THE FORMER INHABITANTS OF THIS CONTINENT, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the bfulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;
MY WORD THIS IS FRICKING ABSURD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MH, Ive decided I really am done now. You are impossible. This has gone far beyond the level of absurdity I’ve ever seen in an online conversation I’ve had.
“I tire of this nonsensical battle” too. Thanks for the nice parting shots, but I wish you well.
While I don’t want to echo Ed Goble’s tenor, I do agree with his points. It has been clearly taught that The Book of Mormon takes place somewhere in the America’s. Joseph Smith, down to current Prophets have made these points. They have referenced the Lamanites while speaking in conferences throughout South America. They have sanctioned film productions which seem to tie the Lamanites to the Mayans. We have early missions to the Lamanites throughout North America. We have Zelph, who was a commander in the last great battle of the Lamanite army. Brigham Young taught that Moroni visited Manti Utah. In order to win the anthropological/archaeological argument surrounding anachronisms and other inconsitencies within The Book of Mormon, you will have to lose modern revelation debate by discounting what the Prophets say, have said, vs. what they know.
MH, the level of irrationality and absurdity manifested in this pushed me to get real irritated at you, and I can’t imagine why you can’t see how. If I were conspiracy theory prone, I would say that you are feigning your open mindedness towards the idea of the Malay thing. That’s almost how I feel about you. I am to the point almost where I think you aren’t truly open to what you are arguing and that you are just doing it to try to show the absurdity of the historicity of the Book of Mormon to you, that you are putting on a show. I truly believe that the originator of the Malay proposition does not believe in Book of Mormon historicity.
Author
Cowboy,
I agree with everything you said in 99. Joseph Smith also believed in a Hemispheric Model, which Ed rejects. If we are going to believe everything Joseph said, then we can only be open to the Hemispheric model, and all other models (Meso, Great Lakes, Malay) are bogus.
So, if we’re willing to throw out the Hemispheric Model, we really need to look at ALL the alternatives. As Ed pointed out with his list of scriptures, we (Latter-Day Saints) have always interpreted those scriptures to mean America. Certainly Joseph Smith did. But if we’re willing to toss the Hemispheric theory by the wayside, does ANYONE believe that Guatemala or Mexico is the Land of the Gentiles? Is Mexico/Guatemala the Promised Land? They don’t seem to fit Ed’s scriptures either, unless we assume that Spain is the Motherland, instead of Britain.
Ed, I know you have an anxiety disorder as you stated in 48, so I don’t want to provoke you any more. But I PROMISE to do a post on South American models. I’m sure you will take great issue with that theory as well, but I am open to them all. (Look at that–I’ve promised 2 more posts–one to Ed and Doug G now.)
Author
Cowboy,
I want to make one other point. I don’t have the exact reference now, but regarding your statement, “you will have to lose modern revelation debate by discounting what the Prophets say”, I just want to point out that is exactly what Sorenson does. I’ll get the quote when I get home, but paraphrasing Sorenson, he says basically, forget what the church leaders said. Joseph said lots of contradictory things on BoM geography. Church leaders don’t know, and they freely admit that they don’t know where the BoM took place.
I was talking to Voni on the phone last night. She gave Pres Monson a copy of the theory. The “thank you” letter she received specifically says that church leaders have no position on BoM geography. Perhaps she will quote the letter here.
“Is Mexico/Guatemala the Promised Land? They don’t seem to fit Ed’s scriptures either, unless we assume that Spain is the Motherland, instead of Britain.”
Didn’t Columbus finance his voyage through Spain?
On a serious note I see your point about considering all alternatives. For what it is worth I am real interested on your forthcoming Book of Mormon authorship post.
I’m late to the discussion, and haven’t taken the time to read through all 101 comments, but I have a few things to throw out.
1. According to the Book of Mormon, Mormon’s plates were not buried in the Hill Cumorah. (See Mormon 6:6)
2. Moroni ‘hid [them] up unto the Lord,’ but does not say where. (http://bookofmormononline.net/downfall/136)
3. Joseph Smith never called the hill near his home “Cumorah.” (JS-H 1: 51)
There is no need to shoehorn Moroni into New York. Hundreds of years took place in between, and it is not unreasonable that some other people (3 Nephites?) did the heavy lifting to get them from Mesoamerica/Malaysia where they needed to be in the 1820s.
4. The Book of Mormon itself makes no claim to be an ‘American’ book. Granted, this idea was injected into the theology early on by the angel Moroni’s quote and the words of countless leaders and prophets, but the Book of Mormon itself simply does not. The closest thing it comes to it is the prophesy of Colombus, which occurs during Nephi’s vision, where he sees his posterity. Olsen does claim that the posterity of Nephi did in fact end up in America. ( via landbridge migration) The ‘land of liberty’ idea seems to jive well with America, until we realize that Thailand also means ‘land of the free.’
I’m not advocating the Malay theory as true, but I find any discussion of BOM Geography very counterproductive if we’re imposing long-standing assumptions on the text when in fact the text makes no such claims.
Yes, the Cumorah thing always bothered me. I didn’t know why people call the hill that the plates were found in “Cumorah.” It didn’t make sense to me. The Hill Cumorah Pageant, etc.