Are we going to be Eunuchs after this life?

James abuse, book of mormon, burdens, Culture, curiosity, Discrimination, diversity, doubt, education, eternity, faith, families, fear, Folklore, general, General Authorities, General Conference, God, Happiness, history, Humor, Jesus, joseph, Logic, marriage, Mormon, mormon, Mormons, obedience, orthodox, prophets, questioning, religion, resolutions, salvation, scripture, sexuality, smith, spiritual progression, spirituality, tesimony, theology, thought, women 78 Comments

My home teacher (who is very cool) came by yesterday to drop off some starter cables for my car and as one does in that short interlude we discussed the celestial kingdom and being Gods after this life. He believed that those who don’t make it to the highest kingdom in the Celestial Kingdom won’t have any sexual relationships and if you don’t have sexual relationships their will be no need for sexual organs.

Its interesting talking about controversial stuff but I was finding this unnerving!!

Eunuch
1: a castrated man placed in charge of a harem or employed as a chamberlain in a palace
2: a man or boy deprived of the testes or external genitals
3: one that lacks virility or power <political eunuchs>

In both of these kingdoms [i.e., the terrestrial and telestial] there will be changes in the bodies and limitations. They will not have the power of increase, neither the power or nature to live as husbands and wives, for this will be denied them and they cannot increase. Those who receive the exaltation in the celestial kingdom will have the “continuation of the seeds forever.” They will live in the family relationship. In the terrestrial and in the telestial kingdoms there will be no marriage. Those who enter there will remain “separately and singly” forever. Some of the functions in the celestial body will not appear in the terrestrial body, neither in the telestial body, and the power of procreation will be removed. I take it that men and women will, in these kingdoms, be just what the so-called Christian world expects us all to be – neither man nor woman, merely immortal beings having received the resurrection. (Doctrines of Salvation. vol. 2, pg. 287-288.)

Joseph Smith said that even the telestial Kingdom was thousands of times better than this world and if we had a glimpse of it we would kill ourselves now to get there. I think many of us now would disagree with Joseph Smith Jr in light of reading the more current views of Joseph Fielding Smith.

In the family proclamation we learn that Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose. But the family proclamation is not kingdom specific to whether will still have our male or female gender if we don’t make it to the highest kingdom of the Celestial Kingdom.

I thought I was being unique (pun) in this post but as I have researched,being a so called  EUNUCH is a phrase used in the Bloggernacle since 2006 its called  TK SMOOTHIE

It has two definitions

  1. The logical conclusion for JFS, then, was to say that the people in the TK would not have male or female genitalia.
  2. If a doctrine of the church seems like it has been created in order to “fix” or explain another, it might be a TK Smoothie. The TK Smoothie is eponymous for all doctrines that are probably bogus but exist in order to clarify some other doctrine or speculation.

Bishop Young 🙂 Spanish Fork 401st Ward

In Mormonism, we have an expanded picture of life that extends before this mortal life and then on into the eternities. However, when you really dig into this, it turns out that we have very few details on what to expect after this life, and the details we do have come mostly from talks given almost 175 years ago. And to say that our expectations of ‘Heaven,’ have changed quite a bit since then is a gross understatement.

Despite all the speculation, one detail that we know for sure: unless you make it to the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom, there will be no eternal sex. Basically, you’d be turned into a Telestial/Terrestrial Kingdom Smoothie (TK Smoothie). I like to imagine these lesser-Kingdoms as the Barbie & Ken Kingdoms. Everyone walking around looking beautiful and perfect for eternity, but having a smooth under-carriage like Barbie or Ken.


Parley P. Pratt

The object of the union of the sexes is the propagation of their species, or procreation; also for mutual affection, and the cultivation of those eternal principles of never ending charity and benevolence, which are inspired by the Eternal Spirit; also for mutual comfort and assistance in this world of toil and sorrow, and for mutual duties toward their offspring. Key to the Science of Theology, Ch.17, p.169

I would like to believe as Parley P Pratt describes that this mutual affection will not only be for this life but carried through to all the kingdoms after this life to all of our Brothers and Sisters who have lived on this earth.

Questions

  1. If you make it to the Celestial Kingdom how would you feel when you visit a Parent, Grandparent, Brother, Sister, Son or Daughter in the Terrestrial Kingdom with out any Gender?
  2. Do you believe Joseph Fielding Smith is correct?
  3. Is there any current doctrine that overrides his beliefs?
  4. If JFS doctrine is correct the word Brother and Sister takes on a whole different meaning in the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdom?
  5. Is it silly doctrine we should jettison?
  6. If it is still true do you think if we emphasised it more it might motivate members to push harder for the Celestial Kingdom?
  7. Doctrines of Salvation is most of it safe doctrine we can use in our talks and lessons ?  Is some of it suspect and if it is how do we know what that is? Do you think of it as interesting reading not really fiction but not really solid doctrinally? How would you describe it?

Comments

comments

Comments 78

  1. I don’t care, since I don’t think there will be “sexual relationships” in any kingdom after life, as we commonly define and engage in them here. Sex in the afterlife makes no sense to me, especially since the lack of it clears up SO many thorny issues in our history and former practices.

  2. 1 Ray

    I don’t care, since I don’t think there will be “sexual relationships” in any kingdom after life,

    Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom will have the “continuation of the seeds forever.” They will live in the family relationship.

    Doesn’t that mean to you they will live the same physically as we are here?

  3. Not necessarily, James. If we already don’t need sexual intercourse to create children in mortality, I can’t see why we believe God is limited to that manner of creation. Think about that; it really is stupendously limiting to say God must use a process we don’t even have to use anymore.

    Also, we know absolutely NOTHING about the actual mechanics of creating spirits – nothing. Our canon literally is silent regarding that process.

    I’m not making any Truth claims here. I’m just saying it makes MUCH more sense to me if there isn’t sexual reproduction as we know it here and now in the there and then.

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  5. *hands over ears at Ray* la-la-la-la-la-la I can’t hear you …..

    Hey, the promise of eternal sex is the POINT of being good in this life, or at least so I thought. I surely hope you’re wrong, Ray, because otherwise, I will feel incredibly cheated and lied to by God.

  6. “I don’t think there will be “sexual relationships” in any kingdom after life”

    Really? Standard Mormon theology, written above, says otherwise. I for one an looking forward to having this , err, capacity and seeing people like Madonna and Hugh Hefner miss out. (Oh, and all them gays who protested in front of the LA Temple also missing out!)

    “we know absolutely NOTHING about the actual mechanics of creating spirits – nothing. Our canon literally is silent regarding that process.” Yeap! in the Godmakers process we are maybe pre-teens now, we know something’s going on but aren’t there yet.

  7. Although I agree with Ray that our canon is silent regarding the process of creating spirits, I think our bodies will be resurrected with genitals and we will be able to use them to have sex if we want to, in whatever kingdom we are in. Maybe we won’t want to for some reason, but I think the nerves, muscles, skin, etc. will all be in place regardless of kingdom, and any statements to the contrary are speculation (as, of course, is my statement).

  8. I think there is sex in the afterlife. We LDS are not really alone in surmising this, though I’ve never heard other Christians say it. Hindu beliefs include the gods having sexual relationships, and one of the ways a mortal can relate to a god (or to God) is as a lover. (Some others are as a worshipper, friend, parent, child, or pet. Wouldn’t it be awesome to be God’s lap cat?)

    We haven’t been told what direct revelations have been given on the subject, but I feel confident that, whatever the mechanics, we do have sexual relationships in the Celestial Kingdom, of an elevated selfless type.

    I think it’s best not to emphasize it, because it’s the kind of thing people like to latch on to and be either scandalized by or pruriently interested in. Maybe when we can get over those tendencies, we’ll be told more about it.

    1. I have to say, It is simply put in the church doctrine, the Celestial kingdom we will have the gift and power for procreation, other than the Celestial kingdom there is no need for that power, I think we will all have our body parts but the desire will not be there anymore, or there would be total frustration, can you imagine.
      I call the terrestrial kingdom and Telestial kingdom.” ” “Cuddle worlds”, I don’t want to be in the “cuddle world” myself. I want to embrace the glory that all the celestial kingdom can offer etc etc.

      1. Well I see that you do not believe that Father can take away as much as He can give. But, whether by dints of words or the effort of man can convince you- you and I and all men and women will see that On Judgment Day– a Last and very powerful Test / Challenge / Proof of our metal / our character and our choice — shall take place– and with the full recollection of our mortal life and spirit life after mortality– we shall be experience that full measure of the lust cravings and inner secret heart which we have either made holy or to which in the full measure of our recollection of every temptation and every chance for Sin– shall feel in our Resurrected bodies and vital and vivacious forms– we shall either be holy and pure or we shall return and relish in darkness of the natural man and natural woman and seek and plan and scheme for the misuse and abuse of those power of life (as i call them) which is our sexuality (given in part as a test of that which IS CELESTIAL as are those parts designed to fulfill that Celestial function plan and purpose. And those who choose again with the full Weight of Temptation from their past set on their minds– and the pressure and view of Celestial counterparts men for woman and women for men– Seeing the objects which in mortal life would generate the total lust– Those and Each of Those that on that day choose lust over love and virtue in the constraints of holy marriage ordained and confirmed as legal and lawful before God– shall show themselves to be either Pure or ‘Filthy Still’
        And those that are so carried away in the moment and in the past and power of Sin’s dark power– shall be so declared by The Eternal Judge
        And on that day they shall be changed and those features parts and passions shall be Removed by a GOD who is first and foremost as His Father JUST before ALL– not the simpering and feminist god of Mercy only to the rejection of Justice. But The God of the bar the Day of Judgment — was and is first and foremost JUST– or he never would have been worthy to bring forth and fulfill the cause plan and power of Mercy.

        And JUSTICE on that day will Demand that the features, parts, passions and ability to act out the sex act Not be Given to those that would debase, abuse and pervert it even by accident– and certainly not by intention.
        And So By Justice Shall the Everlasting and Eternal Judge of Quick and Dead
        Take away those Celestial powers and parts and Send them to the Kingdoms they chose deserve and are suited for by their faith and their actions.

        They shall not have the form
        of their Celestial Mother
        nor their Celestial Father.

        For they shall be changed and forever be barred from that experience
        that form and that function. For they would not honor it– not make it holy and keep it holy from ugliness of misuse, and sacrilege of fornication and adultery. And they will have other avenues of life effort and growth– but not as sexual beings and not as sexual looking (appearance) beings

        I know you, at present, from your words– reject this reality
        But I affirm to you it is true. And that fateful day shall prove it true.

        You need only wait.
        But in this forum of a topic so powerful and so portentous to our eternal worth and situation– it to me seems propitious that some of the sweet ones led to this site and this topic — have set upon their minds the warning and the goal of this insight.

        I would entreat you to pray and seek Truth
        and I am sure that God Willing, you will come to the realization
        and know for yourself the Grand Design of God
        and His Justice and the Justice of His Son on that Day
        And you will, rather than be obstreperous to this eventuality and Just punishment- see the need, value and beauty in this Grand and final Gethsemane of our character and essence — to protect Eternity from those whose Character would mar the Holiness needed for raising precious spirits to be pure Celestial Souls and the life which if full of Joy (Eternal Life) and the greatest Joy of forever families which is Eternal Lives.

        Make the effort and take the warning as from a loving brother
        and not dismiss it out of hand because it does not comport with worldly views and worldly philosophies or limited understandings of those that by apathy sin or weakness fail to seek ponder and receive from above the greater truths and meat which is won by dint of will and purity of heart.
        I am your brother, imperfect yet, but with desires to be perfect.
        I know as Nephi that God does not give any commandment save He prepares a way for us to fulfill / accomplish / obey that commandment. And that all the Universe is absent the ‘unconditional’ concept of those of the limited mind that deny we can be perfect or that God’s love will save us all “in our sins”. We must fulfill the terms and conditions required and every blessing we receive is based on our faithfulness — the D&C and much of the Pearl of Great Price as well as the mysteries of Godliness found in the Temple of Our God will aid you. Keep the glasses of sight that the Book of Mormon is as the Conversion Tool of this Generation.
        And as to our topic recall and remember the significance of what a perfect Jesus Christ — Who atoned for not just our world but many, many worlds, call our generation– a wicked and adulterous generation.

        That truth of the measure of wickedness of our Generation and the wickedness of our particular planet which is the only one that would seek to Crucify their Lord and King the creator of our Earth and the Author of Salvation–
        AND in that light see the Tempter’s effort and effect upon the minds of those that would encounter this truth of our bodies being deprived of those parts and passions — Satan does not want you to believe such could be the case. The false religion of just cry Lord, Lord — and Mercy only — and there is no law– ALL OF THAT – those comments — encapsulating those beliefs of the modern false doctrine– and more– is “The Orthodox Religion” which Satan promised and did set in place as the great Stumbling Block and to create the minds of men and women the Rock of Offense to reject Christ.
        The Adversary will never want anyone to know they after all they live and endure and experience in life and in the great adventure test and experience of Paradise and the torment struggle and pain of Spirit Prison and the gift of shining being from Paradise coming in and with Glory of God and the Heavenly Gift of The Spirit of Prophesy and Revelation to give the pure and perfect pattern of Truth of Christ Gospel with power and authority and evidences of power necessary for Salvation and Progression for everyone that will “hearken” unto the words of Eternal Life; with those manifestations of The Power of The Spirit (Holy Ghost) upon those servant from God coming to Hell to afford the end of misery to those that will change Repent and follow the PLAN–

        AFTER ALL OF THAT– Satan Absolutely Does Not Want any of you
        or you Sylvia to know that you will be tested again on That Day
        the DAY of DAYS when Christ sits to Judge who is good and who is evil
        Who has endured and who had given up or turned away
        Who is Righteous Will Be tested to See if They are RIGHTEOUS STILL
        and those that kept a fragment a piece a hope for darkness
        who sought deep to hide their counsel from God
        still keep a particle of darkness as a kernel to grow with opportunity of the Eternities to blossom into the corruption — will be in fact
        Filthy Still

        Father and His appointed delegated one to Judge all of mankind
        Shall NEVER EVER — EVER allow the tools of sexual conquest, rape and
        perversion of sodomy — of domination and destruction and wanton
        abuse of pro-creation as a sole and mad dash for lust in abandon
        NEVER shall Father allow those tools of creation and expressions of intimacy to be in the hands of — in the power of — those beings
        that ‘rejoice in iniquity’ ‘delight in everything save that which is good” Which in the generation of Moroni proved to its unquestioning ugly climax of “the suffering of our women and our children upon all the face of this land doth exceed everything; yea, tongue cannot tell, neither can it be written”

        THAT EXIGENCY FATHER WILL NOT ALLOW– and to disbelieve, deny reject or spurn the efficacy, need, and demand of Justice for it to be impossible for the wide expanse of all that is and shall be for unmeasured time of ETERNITY
        that given the tools of sexual expression meant for and to be used by Celestial Beings in the hands of those that Rejected, Hated God and Truth and holiness and virtue and wholesomeness could might may perhaps be put in a position of opportunity idea or temptation to use those body parts and the idea of those passions if not those passions to execute the very Sin and Ugliness to which a God of Truth and A God of Holiness must reject and be true to his word that He can not look upon sin with the least degree of allowance–
        HE SHALL NOT
        And He shall not allow those features, parts and passion in such persons opportunity of action and debasement– to the character of man and woman they with their Free Agency given protected and extended unto them
        WHO CHOSE EVIL
        NO HE SHALL NOT DO THAT

        And IF He were ever to consider what you think shall be — that they remain with the parts and/or passions but just be say inert or infertile
        IF God were to allow the abuse or chance for abuse of those Celestial Aspects — HE Would Violate His Covenants– His Nature —
        and Cease to Be God.

        And my God will not Cease to Be God–
        And I do affirm that this shall be the end of those that choose darkness over Light. They shall not be as vital men with potency of pro-creation for ever and ever with seed that shall never end – and Women with the vivacious bodies that delight and fulfill their husbands to cherish them and enjoy the pure expression of passion and its culmination with the fruit of children from their beloved sweethearts. NO the weak and the fallen shall not have that which Their God and Goddess have. Nor will they have the weight and blessing of Glory — they reject and do not live to inherit– IF SO
        all would be confusion. Our God is a God of ORDER
        And much could be said of the Order of Heaven and the effort need and opportunity to bring that which is Done in Heaven to be done on Earth
        and Much of That will be our great blessing in the era of The Millennium
        when Christ shall rule- upon this we can focus to our gain and blessing

        And please know that you can and shall be able to bear the meat
        and the mysteries of godliness and the tests challenges and sacrifices of Glory in the Eternities IF — IF — you will open your mind to the power of God and seek His face– seek to be worthy to see the Life of the Savior in mortality– see his life’s work, teaching, healing, inspiring and saving ordinances by Vision as did Nephi and so many, many other righteous ones in our past and i believe in our present day. And if you do so and seek that Gift by which that vision is shown to you and use it to act and perform the works you saw The Savior perform in love and service to his fellow men and women — so as to be in your actions Christ like and a Savior on mount Zion– you can indeed Follow Him and be One with Him and One with the Father — as He taught in part in Jerusalem and in greater part to the more worthy in the Land of Bountiful in his Visit after Resurrection. And then you can proceed to do that which Ye Will Have Seen Him Do– and you will find the innocent and precious and love them with the Pure Love of Christ– and embark on the Grand Work and Glory which is Christ’s — to bring to pass the immortality and Eternal Life of Man (and women for all those that don’t quite understand the conjugation of language and take offense where none was ever meant.)

        You are a daughter of Eve who is today at her husband’s side True and Faithful in All things You can be that way too!
        You can learn and grow and be edified and made glorious.
        And would not I want such for you? my dear sister– Yes I should and Do

        Be patient with me– I don’t have the power of speech of the power of words to match my heart’s desire. I am imperfect and so I bid thee have patience with me and cast me not away or my words in haste or worse in anger.
        I know Jesus Lives- as I know I live and breathe. I know he visits his children in their afflictions- This I know. I bear my solemn and truthful witness that Father lives and love us and want the best– but as Jesus can not look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. To this he gave his beloved the duty and role and task of Savior – and Jesus fulfilled that role
        and HE will Save as many as who will in the Sincerity of heart and real intent of their inner heart and action submit to His Will and Commands and Pattern of Holy progression to Perfection. This I know. And I know that Joseph Smith was and is the true Prophet of This last age of earth this Dispensation of the Fullness of Times– and that is important as the words revelations truths principals and patterns set forth in modern scripture are essential for the Quest for Truth — including to the understanding of this insight of what I called the ‘Anguished Androgyny” that shall befall those that will not repent and will not be pure.

        Please be the girl; the daughter, the hand-maiden to The Lord that you can are destined to be by the pattern and laws set by God for that Glory
        and a treasured and beloved wife to a dear husband and joy in and with him forever. A mother, a priestess to your husband as priest of God. And a goddess to him as a god– May this be Your Goal as it has been set and ordained in the Grand Counsel for all the children of God– who will so live and perfect themselves to be!

        yours truly

    2. Joseph Fielding Smith
      “Some of the functions in the celestial body will not appear in the terrestrial body, neither in the telestial body, and the power of procreation will be removed. I take it that men and women will, in these kingdoms, be just what the so-called Christian world expects us all to be – neither man nor woman, merely immortal beings having received the resurrection.”
      Unless you are exalted, you will be genderless…. so says the prophet

  9. “if we had a glimpse of it we would kill ourselves now to get there”

    As far as I’m aware, there is no record of Joseph Smith ever saying this… anyone else know?

    Either way, interesting topic James!

  10. If we already don’t need sexual intercourse to create children in mortality, I can’t see why we believe God is limited to that manner of creation. Think about that; it really is stupendously limiting to say God must use a process we don’t even have to use anymore.

    Why does God have body at all?

    If we already don’t need ears to hear in mortality [think cochlear implants], I can’t see why we believe God is limited to that manner of hearing.

    If we already don’t need feet to walk and run [think those flexible orthotic blades], I can’t see why we believe God is limited to that manner of locomotion.

    I could go on until God is just a robot that we will be able to build in the not so distant future.

  11. Diving into the ‘smoothie doctrine’ and the whole Fielding Smith/McConkie/Fielding McConkie doctrinal continuum’s rather rigid ideas regarding race, gender and destiny are a sure sign of the loon.

  12. “Why does God have body at all?”

    An inadvertently good question, Last Lemming. I think God has a body because it is Him. When we are exalted, we may not need membrane in our ear to recognize the movement of air waves, or nerves in our eyes to register visible light, or vocal cords to manipulate the air around us, but all these things will be part of us, so we may use them or not, as needed. Heavenly Father may not need a physical body to exercise his power (whether procreative, creative, or other), but that does not mean he is not a physical being.

    1. God has a body because we have given him one. Those that say he doesn’t have a body and then claim a testimony are not being truthful. If they spoke with and visited with God and report a “human” presence then it is their mind which created the God which was before them. A great line in a famous movie once went like this. “How do you know you are God?” Answer: “I know I am God because every time I pray to God I find that I am talking to myself.” Peter O’Toole, The Ruling Class. The so called testimonies I have heard are all man’s visiting his own imagination and the inward glimpse of God is a mirror image of what we need God to look like.

  13. A couple of quick comments. Doctrines of Salvation was the edited teachings of Joseph Fielding Smith. Your picture is of his father, Joseph F. Smith. Also, the bit about the TK and suicide, Joseph Smith never said that.

  14. Initial rant: “Gender” is not a function of sex organs, but rather a social construct which on this planet has varied wildly by culture and timeframe. Notwithstanding the misuse of that term in the “Proclamation,” we are talking about “sex” here, not “gender.” That said….

    #1:
    I don’t think there will be “sexual relationships” in any kingdom after life, as we commonly define and engage in them here. Sex in the afterlife makes no sense to me…

    Then Ray, my friend, you’re not doing it right! (couldn’t resist–grin!) Seriously though, sexual intimacy can be a source of great joy, and as demonstrated in the above quotations, it has many purposes other than reproduction. The deity of Joseph Smith created mankind “that he might have joy,” so it seems inconsistent IMO to suggest that sexual intimacy will be limited to mortality.

    #3:
    Also, we know absolutely NOTHING about the actual mechanics of creating spirits – nothing. Our canon literally is silent regarding that process.

    To be fair, Ray, “your canon” is literally silent on a whole host of doctrines which were regularly taught in LDS circles for 150+ years. It’s a bit of a dodge to say on the one hand that “every word” from a prophet or apostle is “scripture” (recognizing the proviso “spoken by the spirit,” which is pretty much taken for granted in LDS circles, when it comes to these officers), but on the other hand anything that causes discomfort isn’t “official,” “canon,” “scripture,” etc.

    #5:
    I for one a[m] looking forward to having this, err, capacity and seeing…all them gays who protested in front of the LA Temple also missing out!”

    Trust me, CarlosJC, “all them gays” won’t feel like they’re “missing out” on eternal hetero sex. For most of us, that would be like being force-fed canned cat food, after a diet of filet mignon and lobster. 😉

    #6:
    I think the nerves, muscles, skin, etc. will all be in place regardless of kingdom, and any statements to the contrary are speculation…

    Everything else in LDS “canon” would suggest that the “TK Smoothie” is a false doctrine, considering how many scriptures go on about every hair of the head, etc., etc., being restored to the physical body at resurrection. I’ve never encountered any LDS scripture that creates an exception for “naughty bits.”

    #7:
    Wouldn’t it be awesome to be God’s lap cat?

    Umm…only if deity feeds his cat filet mignon and lobster (see above). 😉

  15. #12:
    Also, the bit about the TK and suicide, Joseph Smith never said that.

    While I’m unaware of any reliable record that Joseph Smith said such a thing, it’s certainly a pervasive bit of folklore. In any case, we simply don’t have the evidence to prove that “Joseph Smith never said that.” We can only say that we’ve found no documentary evidence to support the claim that Joseph Smith said that.

  16. In answer to the question posed in the title of this post, I can’t answer the question of whether YOU all will be eunuchs in the next life, but as for me and my house, we are doing everything possible to ensure that we do not endure the eternal shame of a TK Smoothie in the afterlife.

    My sincere prayer is that none of us have to lose what is now a tray-sure and a play-sure beyond may-sure.

  17. Nick Literski said: “Trust me, CarlosJC, “all them gays” won’t feel like they’re “missing out” on eternal hetero sex. For most of us, that would be like being force-fed canned cat food, after a diet of filet mignon and lobster.”

    Not to be too anal about the accuracy of your simile (no pun intended), but wouldn’t be a more accurate to say: “‘all them gays’ won’t feel like they’re ‘missing out on eternal hetero sex. For the most of us, that would be like being force-fed canned cat food, after a diet of sausage and Rocky Mountain oysters”? 😉

    Also Nick, hate to say it, but if you didn’t like “hetero sex” you must have been doing it wrong too. 🙂

    Sorry, I couldn’t resist either. 🙂

  18. This is another one of those things that the scriptures are silent on, and that skepticism should be followed where a general authority gives an opinion. It is clear enough from the scriptures that those that don’t make it to particular glories won’t procreate. Why speculate beyond that?

  19. LOL TK Smoothie. I hadn’t heard the term before today. LOVE it.

    As for mechanics, anatomies, physiologies, etc. of resurrected bodies I have no clue, and conjecture about them only leads to more speculation. Pretty soon, we all start sounding seriously kooky. I mean, just step back for a second and read through the comments on this post to get an idea about what I’m talking about.

    So if eternity is all about families, how are families formed? Biologically on Earth, a family is formed by the joining of genetic materials from a male and female that develops into another human being. If we are indeed literally “children of our Heavenly Father”, we assume (correctly? I have no idea) that there is some kind of transference of spiritual genetic material (for lack of better imagery) from both heavenly parents to form each person living on the earth today. If our goal is to return to live with our Heavenly Father and Mother again as a family, then exalted eternal life’s goal seems to me to be the ability to continue this transferral of family “genes” to spiritual progeny in a paradigm of eternal growth (of the celestial family).

    But there is another way humans build families that isn’t related to the biological act of procreation. It has theologically symbolic application, and indeed may be more powerful than flesh and blood (and genetics) for producing lasting, bonded relationships. It is the concept of adoption. Humans have devised a way of binding individuals not related to each other by blood into family units. This is particularly important for couples who cannot have children biologically for one reason or another. These adopted children may be sealed to these couples for eternity, despite the fact that they are not related by blood. Children who are abandoned or disowned may be adopted or inducted into the families of friends. Indeed, whether or not we are somehow directly related by blood to Abraham, we are all “adopted” into the House of Israel through baptism, and are therefore inheritors of the blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant. My point? humans are social beings, intent on building social and emotional ties to others regardless of whether those other individuals are related by blood. Even if, in the TKs, humans cannot “procreate” in some quasi-biological fashion, they will still be apt to forming familial bonds with one another, because that’s just what we do. Its who we are. Even if a person isn’t able to enjoy the blessings of the sealing ordinance to an earthly spouse, I suppose that they will still seek to make bonds with other post-mortal individual with whom they have contact. That is, unless the TKs are in fact solitary existences, wherein an individual has no contact with others. But I reject that, esp. if doctrines about CK people being able to visit TKers are true. Whether sexual relations exist in the heavens or not is really of no concern to me (although I do enjoy the sex here on earth) — the social and emotional bonds of human relationships will probably endure in every part of heaven, and therein families will perpetuate and possibly emerge.

  20. To answer your questions:
    “1. If you make it to the Celestial Kingdom how would you feel when you visit a Parent, Grandparent, Brother, Sister, Son or Daughter in the Terrestrial Kingdom with out any Gender?”
    I don’t know. In my current state, I would feel sad. But when I’m celestialized, who knows?
    “2. Do you believe Joseph Fielding Smith is correct?”
    No. (see #6 above)
    “3. Is there any current doctrine that overrides his beliefs?”
    See Nick’s #13, above. Nothing in the scriptures or that has been repeated by modern-day prophets suggests that resurrection may exclude any particular body part.
    “4. If JFS doctrine is correct the word Brother and Sister takes on a whole different meaning in the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdom?”
    The words would cease to exist…
    “5. Is it silly doctrine we should jettison?”
    I do not believe it is a doctrine, and yes, it should be jettisoned.
    “6. If it is still true do you think if we emphasized it more it might motivate members to push harder for the Celestial Kingdom?”
    No.
    “7. Doctrines of Salvation is most of it safe doctrine we can use in our talks and lessons ? Is some of it suspect and if it is how do we know what that is? Do you think of it as interesting reading not really fiction but not really solid doctrinally? How would you describe it?”
    I plead ignorance. I have not read “Doctrines of Salvation.”

  21. This seems to be the earliest account of what Joseph Smith possibly said: “Br. Woodruff spoke. . . . He refered to a saying of Joseph Smith which he heard him utter (like this) That if the People knew what was behind the vail, they would try by every means to commit suicide that they might get there, but the Lord in his wisdom had implanted the fear of death in every person that they might cling to life and thus accomplish the designs of their creator. (Diary of Charles Lowell Walker, ed. by A. Karl Larson and Katherine M. Larson [Logan, Ut.: Utah State University Press, 1980], vol. 1, pp. 465-66.)”

    If Smith said this, he seems to have said “veil” not “telestial kingdom”. As for the telestial kingdom quote, Eldred Smith said: “I cannot for a minute conceive the telestial being hell, either, because it is considered a heaven, a glory. The Prophet Joseph Smith told us that if we could get one little glimpse into the telestial glory even, the glory is so great that we would be tempted to commit suicide to get there.” (March 10, 1964, BYU Speeches of the Year, 1964, p. 4)

    As for sex after life, It seems McConkie disagreed with Smith (his father-in-law) in that all resurrected beings would have genitalia. McConkie felt genitalia would not be used for sex except in the celestial kingdom. As for me, I will stick with Ecclesiastes.

  22. “Doctrines of Salvation is most of it safe doctrine we can use in our talks and lessons ? Is some of it suspect and if it is how do we know what that is? Do you think of it as interesting reading not really fiction but not really solid doctrinally? How would you describe it?” There are two kinds of church leaders: those who make pronouncements on all kinds of things they shouldn’t (speculation + authority = pronouncement) and those who disagree but tolerate them (and don’t contradict them). In David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism, this phenomenon is mentioned twice: once in conjunction with the BRM Mormon Doctrine debacle, and once in conjuction with Joseph F. Smith’s Man, His Origin and Destiny. Neither book is considered “canon,” and both are full of errors and speculation, yet neither has been publicly contradicted by the hierarchy (although there have been private disagreements and even private correction. Doctrines of Salvation clearly falls into that camp of non-canonical work as does Miracle of Forgiveness, incidentally. Frankly, it casts some doubt on the host of footnotes and helps in the scriptures, also done by BRM with Daniel Ludlow. Useful? Sure. But questionable by association, IMO. Now I have spoken heresy, to be sure.

  23. On a serious note, I think we should all give Joseph Fielding Smith a little credit for having the forsight to prefacce his absurd (highly understated btw) theory with “I take it that..(fill in the blank with ridiculous hypothesis)…”. We can never walk away from this comment confused as to whether President Smith was speaking as a Prophet, or a man. It would be nice if all of the other supposed forms of embarrassing speculation were accompanied with such a disclaimer.

  24. Ray:

    All of the sudden I don’t seem to have any problems with the Malay theory, I can live with that so long as you are wrong on your comments here.

  25. What about all the promises to faithful single women that no blessings will be denied us in the next life??? I am now even less thrilled about my current celibacy.

  26. Post
    Author

    NO WAY!!!

    Interestingly, D. Michael Quinn found documented evidence showing that President Young supported Bishop Warren S. Snow’s cruel mistreatment of the young man:

    “In the midsummer of 1857 Brigham Young also expressed approval for an LDS bishop who had castrated a man. In May 1857 Bishop Warren S. Snow’s counselor wrote that twenty-four-year-old Thomas Lewis ‘has now gone crazy’ after being castrated by Bishop Snow for an undisclosed sex crime. When informed of Snow’s action, Young said: ‘I feel to sustain him…’In July Brigham Young wrote a reassuring letter to the bishop about this castration: ‘Just let the matter drop, and say no more about it,’ the LDS president advised, ‘and it will soon die away among the people.’ “(The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power, Vol. 2,
    pages 250-251)

    http://www.eunuch.org/Alpha/M/ea_161853mormon_c.htm

  27. #25 – Awesome. After all that wrangling, one little comment on a totally different topic did more to validate a fringe theory than over 200 comments that actually addressed it.

    There’s probably a good lesson in there somewhere. 🙂

  28. Gender is not mortal, as defined in the Family Proclamation. It does not state we will be “ITS” if we don’t keep our second estate. We are made after God’s own image, male and female.

    Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
    40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
    41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
    42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
    43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

    Resurrected bodies can eat, although they may not have to.

    It would seem inconsistent that all other body parts are the same, except genitalia is only a mortal body part.

    Alma 40: 23 The soul shall be restored to the body, and the body to the soul; yea, and every limb and joint shall be restored to its body; yea, even a hair of the head shall not be lost; but all things shall be restored to their proper and perfect frame.

    If every hair of my bald head will be restored, that’s the least of my worries if more important things will not be restored. It seems pretty clear ALL THINGS will be restored (phew).

    It is very difficult in the mortal sphere to imagine what we will want in the celestial sphere.

    I like to sleep and I like to drink soda, I just don’t know if that will really be my biggest desires in heaven when other possibilities present themselves.

  29. On a related Body question, I’ve often heard that blood is a mortal thing in our bodies, and that when we are resurrected, blood in our veins will be replaced by a more perfect, eternal fluid, in which we will never get sick and never die.

    Does anyone know of any sources to validate that?

  30. Just for the record, I have never argued for any idea that states an incomplete resurrection. I reject those out of hand – for too many reasons to even try to enumerate here. Also, Nick, I have never argued against intimate relationships in the hereafter. At the most basic level, I just don’t think what will exist in the hereafter will involve the processes of impregnation and gestation as we know it here – that we won’t be engaging in sexual intercourse in order to create spirit children.

    I hope that is clearer than my first comments, even if others still disagree. As I said, I really don’t care – and it’s all speculation, imo. I’ll be with my wife; I’ll be happy; I’ll be involved in the creation / growth / progression / whatever of spirits. However that works is fine with me.

    Just to throw a wrinkle into the conversation, those who insist “sex” will continue because its an integral biological part of who we are here need to account for that specific justification relative to all manifestations of sexual desire in this life – not just heterosexual ones. It’s more than a little inconsistent to make that claim about heterosexual inclinations while denying the exact same claim as a justification to believe homosexual inclinations will continue in the hereafter.

  31. This entire post is laughable. I used to ask questions on this site about the history of the church and what I found to be contradictions in things BY taught vis-a-vis the Book of Mormon and common sense. I was ignored or simply told that it didn’t matter. Yet, you people spend your time arguing back and forth about this absolute nonsense? In my opinion, you are embarrassing yourselves and the church.

  32. Ray:

    I think your confusing the issue, we are talking about heaven here – not hell.

    KG McB:

    “If every hair of my bald head will be restored, that’s the least of my worries if more important things will not be restored. It seems pretty clear ALL THINGS will be restored (phew).”

    Well said.

  33. Ray, this doesn’t happen very often, but I agree with you. Wow!

    Doug’s theory; (at least as good as any of your’s :)) Mormon theology tends to make God finite and human. Even though we give lip service to the all powerful, omnipresent, omnipotent stuff, we like to bring him/her down to our finite brains ability to understand. In truth, we don’t have a prayer of understanding and or conceptualizing such a being. So when it comes to mortal sexual relations, we tend to assume God is doing the same thing. It’s quite possible that the level of intimacy in the next world is so far above our brains ability to comprehend that sex in this life may seem like a very cheap substitute for what those in the next world experience. I believe that whatever that intimacy is, it will pervade all of God’s Kingdoms.

    Again, just my two cents and worth what you’re paying for it.

  34. After reading the comments to this post, I just can’t understand how people outside mormon culture could ever conclude that mormons are strange or that the church’s doctrines are crazy. Even if what JFS said is true, this discussion is an utter waste of time. Does anyone honestly think that participating in this post has made them a better or more spiritual person? We can’t figure out how to treat other people civilly, but we’ll pin down whether or not we’re going to have genetalia, if and when we get to the Celestial Kingdom. I think it’s hilarious that, when begged by B.H. Roberts to produce some refutation of serious questions as to the veracity of the Book of Mormon, the brethren can’t come up with a single response. And that goes directly to the spreading of the gospel. Meanwhile, the prophet is writing treatises about the state of sexual reproduction in the next life. Even if this information is true, it has absolutely no bearing on anything going on in the here and now.

  35. I think you’re confusing the issue, we are talking about heaven here – not hell.

    #34 – 🙂

    Doug, even if global warming is accurate here on earth, Hell is freezing over. 😀

  36. If we are created in in image of God, male and female, then it doesn’t make sense that resurrected beings are without genitalia. If Adam and Eve were created in a Celestial state before the fall, it would make sense that resurrected Celestial beings would have bodies similar to that state, but they would now know the difference between good and evil and would, as the Book of Mormon teaches, have the desire to to good continuously. So, if sexual relations exist in the next life, I would assume any element of lust associated with them would be overcome. The command that desire will be to your husband or wife was given after the fall, so what happens to desire in a Celestial state? Will our earthly notions about what is attractive and what is not attractive be irrelevant?

  37. This website is very boring and so scholastic. Won’t someone please throw out something interesting and controversial?

  38. James, I have to agree with Nick L. on this. One’s gender is not determined by sex organs. Removal of the naughty-bits doesn’t remove one’s male-ness or female-ness. Except for a few rare chromosomal abnormalities (XYY, various forms of hermaphroditism, chimeras, mosaicism, etc.) one’s male-ness or female-ness is in every cell of the body as an XX or an XY pair of chromosomes.

    Gender is also an essential characteristic of the spirit prior to birth.

    JFS’s speculation about whether the naughty-bits are included in the resurrection of non-exalted beings is one of those “interesting” subjects. But the over-arching doctrine is that, and it seems very clear or easy to deduce from other generally accepted doctrine, _if_ there are to be physical sexual relations among resurrected beings, then _only_ exalted beings get to “do it,” because only exalted beings will be married after the resurrection. They are the only ones _not_ living “singly and separately”.

    I don’t know if JFS meant to imply that the bottom two rungs of the CK are “smoothies” too, but we can deduce from the doctrine of them being “single and separate” that the bottom two rungs won’t be having sexual relations.

    JFS’s last sentence that you quoted may seem to _imply_ a “genderless” society in the Terrestrial and Telestial. But, that would only be true if one concedes the point that lack of naughty-bits means lack of gender.

    “Also, the bit about the TK and suicide, Joseph Smith never said that.”

    CES instructors are currently encouraged to disclaim that quote about the TK whenever it’s brought up. Our local CES director said the quote comes from the journal of one insignificant member who claims JS said it, and it never appeared in any journals, notes, minutes, or transcripts of the many others who officially or otherwise documented JS’s sermons/talks. If you get the search words just right, and scroll through many pages, you can find the one and only source somewhere on the web. I don’t have it bookmarked.

  39. Well seems my comment disappeared. Just wanted to add that I also cracked up reading some comments here. Nick, I liked reading what you said, although I must add that unfortunately you will also miss out on gay sex 🙂 unless God changes things to allow SameSex Exaltation of course.

    #23 Hawkgrrrl:

    Its interesting what happened with those books. Many have taken a lot out of context like JFS mainly rejecting the evolution of intelligence (but he did note that more species have disappeared to argue against it and more). Kimball’s claims are also taken out of context a lot, especially the one on rape and whether someone permits or agrees to it, I think he was saying something else overall but he did add that mistakes in the book are his and not the church’s. And what happened with BRM and McKay is worth exploring more especially since, I think, from memory Moyle and Peterson were the committee members? can recall now exactly but it wasn’t McKay himself who pointed out the errors, or no?
    Could all make a good post or several.

  40. #30:
    Gender is not mortal, as defined in the Family Proclamation.

    It doesn’t matter how the “Proclamation” defines gender. If the “Proclamation” said that cows had five legs, would you accept that in spite of the fact that the rest of the English-speaking world knows that a cow has four legs? “Gender” is a social construct, and it varies wildly between cultures and time periods. The “Proclamation” is clearly referring to biological sex being eternal. Just because some ecclesiastical officer misuses a term, doesn’t change the definition of the term.

    #32:
    I just don’t think what will exist in the hereafter will involve the processes of impregnation and gestation as we know it here – that we won’t be engaging in sexual intercourse in order to create spirit children.

    Thanks, Ray. That’s different from how I read your original statement.

    #35:
    Mormon theology tends to make God finite and human. Even though we give lip service to the all powerful, omnipresent, omnipotent stuff, we like to bring him/her down to our finite brains ability to understand.

    To the contrary, I think Mormonism properly elevates mankind, rather thand diminishing deity. That’s one of the most elegant, beautiful aspects of the religion taught by Joseph Smith.

    #41:
    One’s gender is not determined by sex organs…Gender is also an essential characteristic of the spirit prior to birth.

    ARGH….So right, and then so wrong. You’re correct that gender is not determined by sex organs. Aside from the chromosomal defects you mentioned, sex organs determine one’s biological sex. If a spirit has sex organs (and Mormonism would seem to indicate that such is the case), then a sex is eternal. “Gender,” on the other hand, has nothing at all to do with sex organs. Gender is a social construct of what a particular society, at a particular time, considers “masculine” or “feminine.” By definition, “gender” cannot be eternal, no matter how badly an ecclesiastical officer misuses the term.

    #42:
    Kimball’s claims are also taken out of context a lot, especially the one on rape and whether someone permits or agrees to it…

    You can’t “permit or agree to” being raped. Rape is defined by the absence of permission or agreement.

  41. I think Mormonism properly elevates mankind, rather thand diminishing deity. That’s one of the most elegant, beautiful aspects of the religion taught by Joseph Smith.

    Amen, Nick.

  42. CarlosJC – “And what happened with BRM and McKay is worth exploring more especially since, I think, from memory Moyle and Peterson were the committee members? can recall now exactly but it wasn’t McKay himself who pointed out the errors, or no?” McKay was irritated at BRM’s presumption in writing a book with the title Mormon Doctrine without clearance from the FP. Peterson and Moyle were assigned by McKay to go through and identify errors. They found 1,067 errors that they then reviewed with the FP. Yes, there’s a good post in there for sure, although a few have posted on it already on MM.

  43. I’ve heard that Pres. Kimball was the inspiration behind Yoda. Does anyone know whether Joseph F. Smith was the inspiration behind ZZ Top? Also, does anyone know why the Church prohibits us from serving as temple workers if we have facial hair that emulates the former Pres. Smith?

  44. Dear all,

    I have rushed through most comments as I am on my way for the school run. This might stick in my mind and I hope I will not inadvertently drop words such as ‘sexe’ or ‘genitals’ in my reports today.
    Not even mentionning the scriptures which are quite specific as to the loss of physical attributes in inferior worlds (‘neither men nor women’, ‘will be angels unto the gods’…in D&C), I wish, in a passionate moment, to mention sexuality.
    Sexuality is not a competition. Indeed, it is a mean, but, hey, come on!: it is a great blessing. In these special moments with a partner that you love (and who loves you), the feelings go beyong the pleasure of the senses and reach into higher spiritual realms.
    Sexuality is the most powerful desire of human beings (unless, like Paul the Apostle, you decide to remain chaste and then it is mostly out of your mind). It is programmed within the chemistry of our bodies. It is encoded into what we are: we are sexual beings. Since life is a test and a mean to gain a body of flesh as a receptacle for our spirits, sexual desires are a necessary part of our learning to master the flesh (same goes with our stomachs and minds). Do Gods use other means for perpetration of their posterity? All I know, from my smart cultural store, is that Sylvester Stallone, in Demolition Man, is deeply frustrated when Sandra Bullock explains him than in their technology advanced world (he had been in a cryogenic jail for many years) sexe is done through sitting down one in front of another and think about it!
    Because of these powerful desires, and their sacred potential, these things have to be done within the limits our Father has set for us. Then, in the eternity, we may enjoy ourselves because we lives according to the plan of happiness. Not living within this plan will bring sorrow. I don’t imagine a process of punishment by castration by loving beings in the afterlife, I believe in the principle of a resurrection according to righteousness if we have been righteous, and less righteousness if we have been less so. Joseph Smith also said that (forgive my poor translation from the French) “It is at the time of resurrection that there will be much sorrow and gnashings of teeth”, when many will realise that they haven’t fulfilled the measure of their creation, have lived in a way that cannot fulfill their nature. Our choices in mortality will be reflected in our individual resurrection and will determine our sanctity here and there.
    It is preferable to read and ponder D&C personnally, but it seems to me that the Lord and his prophets have been clear.
    There is something special and unique in sexuality, and the fact that plural marriage will be an attribute of the Gods is another point on which eternal exaltation will be based: the blessing to enjoy intimacy in a greatly spiritually enhanced manner.
    Got to go, kids are wondering what is taking me so long…and I can’t tell them!

    Love.

  45. Got to go, kids are wondering what is taking me so long…and I can’t tell them!

    Instant classic line – and instant classic name.

  46. Nick, “Rape is defined by the absence of permission or agreement” Yes certainly, I agree. Kimball was talking about something different, I think.

    Hawkgrrrrl, I’ll read that again tonight; I remember it differently, that others pushed their agenda aga8inst BRM by going to Mckay but then my memory may be failing.

    Homie “….sexe is done through sitting down one in front of another and think about it” well, as a man thinketh…

  47. #50 “Not even mentioning the scriptures which are quite specific as to the loss of physical attributes in inferior worlds (’neither men nor women’, ‘will be angels unto the gods’…in D&C)”

    Are you referring to this one? If so, it says nothing regarding the loss of “physical attributes” in the TKs. (I don’t think “cannot be enlarged” means what you think it means).

    D&C 132: 16-20, 37
    16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
    17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

  48. Lest we forget, gender has the following historical definition:

    GENDER

    That which designates the sexes.

    2. As a general rule, when the masculine is used it includes the
    feminine, as, man (q. v.) sometimes includes women. This is the general
    rule, unless a contrary intention appears. But in penal statutes, which
    must be construed strictly, when the masculine is used and not the
    feminine, the latter is not in general included. 3 C. & P. 225. An instance
    to the contrary, however, may be found in the construction, 25 Ed. III, st.
    5, c. 2, 1, which declares it to be high treason, “When a man doth compass
    or imagine the death of our lord the king,” &c. These words, “our lord the
    king,” have been construed to include a queen regnant. 2 Inst. 7, 8, 9, H.
    P. C. 12, 1 Hawk. P. C. c. 17, Bac. Ab. Treason, D.

    3. Pothier says that the masculine often includes the feminine, but the
    feminine never includes the masculine, that according to this rule if a man
    were to bequeath to another all his horses, his mares would pass by the
    legacy, but if he were to give all his mares, the horses would not be
    included. Poth. Introd. au titre 16, des Testaments et Donations
    Testamentaires, n. 170, 3 Brev. R. 9. In the Louisiana code in the French
    language, it is provided that the word fils, sons, comprehends filles,
    daughters. Art. 3522, n. 1. Vide Ayl. Pand. 57, 4 Car. & Payne, 216, S. C.
    19 Engl. Com. Law R. 351, Barr. on the Stat. 216, note, Feme, Feme covert,
    Feminine, Male, Man, Sex, Women, Worthiest of blood.

    Source: Bouviers Law Dictionary 1856 Edition

    In actual use, cf

    gender bias
    n. unequal treatment in employment opportunity (such as promotion, pay, benefits and privileges), and expectations due to attitudes based on the sex of an employee or group of employees. Gender bias can be a legitimate basis for a lawsuit under anti-discrimination statutes.

    The problem with gender, as with many words, is that there are some who have decided that they either need a word with a different meaning and are using the word for that (and thereby feel that they should be entitled to exclude others from the legal or historical meanings of the word) or there are those who are trying to remake meaning, including the word.

    I would note that Title VII of the Civil Rights Act clearly does not protect transsexuals, and thereby could be thought of using gender the way the Proclamation on the Family uses it and not the way Nick is using it. On the other hand, any reason one might discriminate against transsexuals can be treated as discrimination for failure to follow sexual roles and thereby becomes actionable, which would support Nick’s use of the word. (Yes, the public law class I just taught is bleeding over into my posting).

    I’m back to sleep. I was home asleep, having called in sick when I got a mandatory call, turns out the company has decided that anyone who is sick is to get a call telling them to stay home and recover. This posting was just enough to put me back to sleep.

  49. One possibility (as long as we are speculating) that has not been discussed is that we shall all be resurrected with all our parts, but some of those parts could atrophy from lack of use. Thus, the real question is, what so resurrected beings do? Unless you are married, I don’t see anyone getting any action – at least none that involves those bits.

    If we want to know what we will have, we first have to know what we will be doing. For those of us who have spent years unmarried, that is not an idle question!

  50. #50 – I know this doesn’t apply because you mentioned your kids. Even so, I can’t get the image of Danny Devito from Twins out of my mind when he looks at Arnold S. and says “you’re a virgin”.

  51. Here’s a link to a similar discussion at MADB, in case anyone is interested.

    http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=30428&hl=post-mortal+gender

    Contrary to a couple of replies above, I think it’s fine to wonder and discuss something like this, when you consider what eternity might or might not be like for you depending on your kingdom assignment. Personally, I’m hanging my hat on Alma’s statement that the resurrection will be a complete restoration, with gender in all of its features and implications wholly intact (Alma 40:23, noted above). And, despite the justice of God, being the loving Father that He is, I think He would not want to deny the pleasures of intimacy to those who were “the honorable men of the earth.” However, I can see him making the rapists wait a few millennia.

  52. 47 David and 8 Adam F

    As far as I’m aware, there is no record of Joseph Smith ever saying this… anyone else know?

    Read 22

    This seems to be the earliest account of what Joseph Smith possibly said: “Br. Woodruff spoke. . . . He refered to a saying of Joseph Smith which he heard him utter (like this) That if the People knew what was behind the vail, they would try by every means to commit suicide that they might get there, but the Lord in his wisdom had implanted the fear of death in every person that they might cling to life and thus accomplish the designs of their creator. (Diary of Charles Lowell Walker, ed. by A. Karl Larson and Katherine M. Larson [Logan, Ut.: Utah State University Press, 1980], vol. 1, pp. 465-66.)”

    If Smith said this, he seems to have said “veil” not “telestial kingdom”. As for the telestial kingdom quote, Eldred Smith said: “I cannot for a minute conceive the telestial being hell, either, because it is considered a heaven, a glory. The Prophet Joseph Smith told us that if we could get one little glimpse into the telestial glory even, the glory is so great that we would be tempted to commit suicide to get there.” (March 10, 1964, BYU Speeches of the Year, 1964, p. 4)

  53. Seems to me that years ago I read that Joseph actually said we could hardly wait to die to get to even the TK, not that we’d want to kill ourselves to get there. And doesn’t that make a lot more sense?

      1. The GREATER more telling — more pointed Question — is: What is the in-most “desire”
        of a person who says “…… I look forward to dying, just to go there (meaning the Lower Kingdoms) ?

        Let us remember The Telestial Kingdom is for all who live according to the mindset of Evil – (the natural man and the natural woman)
        That is the Plan the thoughts and life of what Lucifer would have to Destroy God – destroy Godliness – not the form alone but the Holiness that makes godliness into GODLINESS. The very essence of the ‘worldly’ Orthodox Religion created by Lucifer/Satan was to have people live the secret limited finite selfish life of the (me, me, me) — The Utter Self Absorbed Personality
        That mindset of the carnal and sensual (pleasure for pleasure sake and all else be damned or destroyed FOR that pleasure) and
        devilish– that Natural Man and Natural Woman are an Enemy to Perfection – to the Beauty of Perfection which is also a descriptive for ZION – the Pure in Heart.
        So that is One of the Kingdoms – YOU or someone would say “I look forward to dying, just to go there” !!
        Really to the place where Lenin and Stalin and Hitler and every Tyrant un-repentant and every cruel dictator murderer and rapist
        shall live – who live and die and remain steadfastly rejecting The Very Man who protected their Agency so they had even the option of choosing the very Evil – they rejected and hoped to Escape and Defeat – by the Power of The Christ who sent them to mortal life. That kingdom the lowest YOU or someone would say “I look forward to dying, just to go there” !!

        So what is the other of the two lower Kingdoms? The Terrestrial Kingdom- or the Kingdom of the Church of Christ and the Government of Christ – a Free Governance under the Law of Christ – where there is no Tyrant — No Socialist lies deceits manipulation taxation and endless regulations and encroachments of true Liberty – following the very Path of Tyranny by its designer Satan. The Terrestrial Kingdom is only a lower kingdom In As Much as it is NOT THE CELESTIAL or Highest Kingdom

        All most every soul on the Planet with a glimpse of that Place of Safety and Freedom and Beauty Would long and “look forward”
        to Go and Live there.

        BUT WHAT OF THE ISSUE – of the Powers of Life (as i term it) – what of Sex.
        Sex seems to most (especially those who live to only serve the me, me, me of utter selfishness of the natural man and natural woman– THEY think because they are born with parts and with the blossom of puberty – the passions — BECAUSE THEY are a part of life- THEY (the natural man and natural woman) can envision nothing but their everlasting existence
        Have you forgotten that to the natural man – Spiritual Things / Matters / Doctrines / Realities — ARE FOOLISHNESS TO THEM!

        IT is only Those who believe in the Realm of Spirit and that there was a planet upon which we lived in a Pre-Existence where we were in fact spirit children – born of Celestial resurrected perfected embodied Beings– ONLY PEOPLE who believe that place and reality and life – existed – That Accept and Live The Plan of Salvation and Exaltation

        But the Terrestrial only want to be SAVED to return from mortal life – and escape their enemies their torturers the tyrants and the busy-bodies and trouble makers – indeed the roaches and rats of mortal life. YES many, many do love and seek to honor Christ
        BUT they will not think of the part of THE PLAN that deals with “Exaltation” – they will not seek Revelation and content with the smallest the tiniest portion of The Power of God- they may believe Angels visited in the past or even to Joseph Smith-
        But do Angels visit them ? NO Do they seek that blessing and ministration that evidence that Witness ? NO
        For they will not forsake all their sins. And for those that do forsake all their sins. That’s it- they STOP they do not pursue
        they do not hunger — they do not feast — And they will never exercise the faith nor bring forth the “holy works’ necessary to GROW and obtain MORE. They will not seek the Face of Christ – see His Life in Vision as did Adam and Eve most certainly did to be true and faithful in all things. As certainly Enoch did- as certainly The Brother of Jared did- as certainly Nephi and his brother Jacob did – as Abraham and Isaac and Jacob most certainly did- as Melchizedek the King of Salem and whom Christ gave the distinction to name/ call / refer to The Holy Priesthood to not abuse or risk dishonor to The Name of The Son of God. Many many people sought for that More – that Greater Witness. ONLY Those who seek and use the faith to raise themselves to a greater quality and caliber of character – to not just reach the Silver that is the Promise and destiny of the True People of Israel (meaning Princes of God) only the women seeking to be the Silver of Israel (for the sisters to be Princesses of God) are of Terrestrial Caliber
        and who of the true Silver – will seek to elevate themselves greater in beauty and glory of the pure white and wondrous luster of the MOON to seek for The very Light which creates that wondrous Reflected Light – WHO will seek the Light Glory Power and Majesty of that chosen by God to represent The Celestial – The Sun
        Christ gave to The Prophet Joseph ample information on the delineation of the Kingdoms and in modern Revelation the Fact that all those who will not live up to the worthiness of The Celestial CANNOT ENTER THEREIN.
        So was this life – our bodies a gift we did not have in the Pre-Existence? Yes or No NO
        And so that body w/ its parts & passions – boy parts girl parts and the passions drives and desires that are sexual
        ARE a GIFT – and what did Christ try over and over Again to teach about GIFTS – that if you abuse it – IT IS TAKEN AWAY

        Will you fight JUSTICE – will you fight against Christ – do you have the power to Defeat Christ and His Word His Plan His POWER?
        If Satan (who i would venture has more power than any and all of us readers and all of us on this earth and all the other earths combined (who have not Christ’s power) SHALL BE DEFEATED BY CHRIST –
        Who are you OR who am I – to gainsay The Plan – the Reality of The Gift of our bodies for our Second Estate for our mortal life?
        OUR bodies were a Gift – we did not have them? And we did not have those parts and passions in a physical body ? ITS NEW
        and It is a test bed a — a beta – a try-out for us — to see if we would use if for GOOD or use it for EVIL

        WHY OH WHY would any Celestial being grant the continued use of a power that IS FOR and MEANT FOR and to be Exclusively Used for those who will rise to be like The Father and Christ in a fullness – to be parents – to have the intimacy and joy of sexual intercourse bring forth Eternal SEED- WHY would THE GODS give those Celestial Parts and Celestial Passions – and that CELESTIAL RELATIONSHIP which is the marriage relationship — to those that live as beasts – driven by the natural man —
        who are Telestial! WHY would THEY Give those parts passion and that relationship all of them – Celestial – to those that never wanted more than SILVER- who would not seek the Greater and make the effort to refine themselves in The Furnace of The Lord’s FIRE – to change their destiny of Silver – for the Glory of Gold- to be raised — By The Power of The Father
        to the Highest Kingdom?

        THEY WILL NOT!! If you or someone else wants only a lower Kingdom- then Go For IT
        But Do not claim or even dare to pose the Demand – that you are entitled to the features the processes and lifestyle of
        the purest and strongest – when you have that path to purity and strength – Indeed To Perfection — laid before you
        and you Will Not Strive to hunger and thirst – to feast at the Table of The Lord- you will not venture into the Garden of The Lord
        and see by Vision the Reality of He who is The Christ – and then do the works He did – as we will have seen Him do
        following the very same and sacred Pattern He Himself Followed – as He said that He only did that which He saw His FATHER do!
        That Pattern was and is given to those who were sent to become their metal from Before This Life- SILVER
        and only those that become Silver – true Saints of God – holding to the Purity and Beauty of the envisioned Abode of Christ
        even begin to seek who and What He is GOLD- You want to have Celestial Body — seek to live unto The Law for The Celestial
        This Plan and that Path to Perfect first from the lead and tin and iron of the Telestial to the Silver of the Terrestrial is in The Doctrines of Christ- as is the patterns the path commands covenants ordinance and life-style (to the measure up to the Revelations Visitation Ministry and Blessings) that which is required to pursue changing our metal to that of The Celestial

        You entered into this Venue of discussion. If you wish more – seek to Our God and use the tools He and His Son have already provided in the bounty of Modern un-diluted un-molested and un-damaged Scriptures (The Book of Mormon; The D&C and The Pearl of Great Price) then use the mysteries of Godliness made available to the worthy and pursue that which is Celestial.
        IF you do not understand – seek in Prayer and cast aside any and all dross you know of- and be willing to enter into the Refinement Process. NO PAIN NO GAIN. You must be willing to Deny Yourself and take up your cross (the pain suffering trials tests and challenged God will Send – Satan will sent and men and women will send) and be Valiant
        And after he had gathered the apostles and the people The Lord told them If any man will come after Me
        let him “deny himself” and take up his cross daily – and Follow Me !! Then He explained (as revealed to Joseph See JST)
        “and now for a man to take up his cross, is to deny himself all ungodliness and every worldly lust and Keep My Commandments” !!
        Have you that in your inmost heart – is that the guiding light for your DESIRE- for The Godhead have decreed that men and women will be given according to their desires. If you Desire to be with them to have their life and their lives (power to have children forever) YOU MUST seek to deny yourself (that means the natural man and natural woman) given received and in operation from the very fruit that Adam and Eve partook of spiritual aspects Good and Evil and temporal aspects GOOD and Evil.
        You must deny those and reject all ‘ungodliness’ and EVERY worldly lust (for sex used outside of real marriage by God by God’s Power / Priesthood and in His House (Temple) and following His commands covenants and ordinance AND THE LUST for things or gold silver treasure — for praise of the world – for covetousness – for Power Domination Cruelty etc.
        You can do it- Adam and Eve did it- and they are our examples – examples that we could well fully understand an view by what?
        Revelation – the foundation and the structure of the Kingdom of God- continuing and abiding and full rich and wondrous
        Revelation – not just the tiniest flame the smallest spark the faintest touch of The POWER OF GOD
        But the beauty and crystal knife sharp edge of Clarity of reality as real as the Nuclear Bomb and as precisely seen as by an Electron Microscope !!
        You must (or rather I should invite cajole and inspire to say) You may seek this Great Wonder- but you will have to
        leave behind that idea that “I look forward to dying, just to go there” — to those Lower Kingdoms
        Both of Glory — indeed !! Both full of future inhabitants YES But they are not the Home and the Prize that made the entire
        Hosts of Heaven SHOUT FOR JOY

        Yes part of that Joyful Shout was for a body- a body as Celestial Men and Women have!
        But that’s the very point- Celestial Bodies: for Celestial People- People living having the character and strength that is CELESTIAL
        If you not – you won’t have it
        And the purity and precious nature of innocence and holiness demands that such wondrous precious powers remain HOLY
        And that same Great DIVIDE that exists to protect the tender heart the babe and innocent from EVIL
        is truly the very same DIVIDE to bar that which is not Celestial from having the tools features and attributes of The Celestial !!

  54. Brother Pratt said, “… Mutual comfort… In [THIS] world of toil and sorrow.” There are scientific studies showing how intercourse helps with stress and other negative feelings. First, the Earth in her paradaisical glory will not be a world of sorrow, but one comparable to Eden’s Garden. That’s only a part of her evolution: imagine when she evolves to her crystalized Celestial state!
    Second, we are mortal beings and as such have a duality: our identity vs. The desires of our body. Intercourse helps quench the body’s desire. That will no longer be a burden for us to carry in the next stage of life! 🙂 Those who are Celestialized will have certain responsibilites, while the Terrestrial will have theirs. It all evens out.

  55. Answers to Questions (I typed a draft its 2000 words so I will post in parts)
    [Part 1] Prefatory note—if I am not mistaken only one person actually deemed it necessary to actually answer questions in a forum on an issue. With that level of response is it a wonder why so many responses were so shallow or full of invectives and base criticisms? I will try to do better. First, If those who are reading are not under Covenant as members of Christ Church, and have received and seek to fulfill the Sacred Covenants of ‘The Endowment’ they should likely need to withdraw from the discussion as they will neither understand the meat and will take it as a pearl cast to the swine that simply enrages the beast who sees all proffered items food and finding it is not, seeks to rend to pieces the messenger!]
    Q#1 If you make it to the Celestial Kingdom how would you feel when you visit a Parent, Grandparent, Brother, Sister, Son or Daughter in the Terrestrial Kingdom without any Gender?
    First you presuppose that Father and Christ will allow those in the Celestial to visit those that were adjudicated by The Eternal Judge of quick and dead, The Christ, as neither using their Agency to live the higher law and/or acting in Rebellion against their Savior – earning the curse of being barred from eternal progression. I would be sad for their plight- and having children now who have rejected submission to The Order of Heaven and Priesthood as incorporated into The Law of Sacrifice—I am already suffering for their free choice to rebel and follow after deceivers and wolves that are in the flock until The Savior cleanses the inner vessel prior to His Wrath against the world (the outer vessel).
    Will I want to visit them? Yes. But– Shall I request that which would spurn Eternal Justice
    and bring them nothing but more misery and the temptation to see me or my visit as a pearl cast to swine? NO. I shall not visit them!
    Worlds without end. If they are cast into those Kingdoms and barred from Celestial Heaven (they not only rejected the higher law and greater tasks of obedience sacrifice and pure love in mortality—But Also Did Not relent, repent or repair during the Spirit Prison experience. Where is reality of objectivity here??
    I have loved them in life and they rejected my service, love and patience—I can yearn but I value Justice over the world’s lamentable perversion of ‘unconditional love’. I honor God and love him more than my children. He said that those that love others more than him are not worthy of Him. So the question on its face denies the Law of Christ—love them as yourself—not More than love to God!
    [Your question shows you do not understand the pure Gospel (Doctrines) of Christ; or have rejected knowing it, as is most reasonable, due to some sin or lack of faith in your life. Sad but True.]

  56. [Part 2]
    Q#2 Do you believe Joseph Fielding Smith is correct?
    YES. I came to this insight separately, before I ever found and read this website and this forum discussion.
    [To clear examples will aid the readers/discussion—1st Example
    Odd it is that no person mentioned rape or sexual predators in the post above.
    It is inconceivable that a Just God would allow such travesty and abuse to women in the eternities by giving men who were (to a great extent) denied entry to the Celestial Kingdom the tool of a penis to continue that practice of abuse or aggression to others. Would you really give (pick any figure present today or in history that was a rapist; pedophile; or sexual predator) the means for him to continue that vile act for ever and ever?? Really—NO. No Just and loving God would so curse those lacking faith or rejecting the challenge necessary to live Christ Like to the level of Celestial blessing and then make them fodder for the vile and evil men that would never change.
    2nd Example Would you give a person a raging hunger for chocolate but never for eons and eons unmeasured deny the very substance they crave? A few people alluded to the Power and Scope of Sex as a desire and appetite that exists and demands of all but the impaired or demented to be fed. Only those with faith to constrain that powerful passion to the limits set by The Lord for legal (worldly) and lawful (The Covenant of Chastity) married men to their wives and wives with their legal and lawful husband.
    It is not inconsistent with Wisdom, or Justice to deprive those who cast aside God’s Laws and used this power with abandon, perversion or by brutality – from having that power of Life in the eternities.
    Since God the Son (Jesus Christ) is a God of Truth and cannot lie—all men will be resurrected with a penis and testicles and women with breast and a vagina. But that does not mean that they will continue to have that completed immortal body at the fall of the gavel and pronouncement of their eternal assignment to a lower Kingdom. It seems folly and a gross oversight that you all seem to forget that Christ healed the lame, blind or especially applicable Lepers, to all spectators’ perspective, instantaneously. (Yes some had to have it in stages but most were done in a moment). When Christ declares to the wicked “I never knew you” and “depart from Me, ye that do iniquity” It will be with a curse and that curse will be as to the barren fig tree – they will wither away. Those attributes presaging the powers of godhood that they would not honor and fulfill by their choice of Agency and their acts of wickedness or determined unbelief Will Earn Them the curse. And as real as the curses of the races – or as real as the change in the bodies changing Adam & Eve from immortal to creatures with blood and features of entropy (advancing decrepitude, susceptibility to fatal illness) and death—So too will the curse be laid upon those entering the lower Kingdoms- they will lose passion and the tools to enact the same. Men will still have the DNA of men and women the codes for a women—they will just be as pre-pubescent children (male and female) but without the secondary sexual features of adult men and women. This is both Wise and Just.
    Your failure to see and understand is a function of unbelief, ignorance or wanton disbelief. As is the pattern for all Truth. Those that have ears to hear—hear! Those that have eyes to see—see!

  57. [Part 3]
    Q#2 Is there any current doctrine that overrides his beliefs?
    No—there is not.

    Q#3 If JFS doctrine is correct the word Brother and Sister takes on a whole different meaning in the Terrestrial and Tellestial Kingdom?
    Nonsense. Is a child up to the age of puberty not a boy or a girl just because they are not impassioned and able to have orgasm; intercourse; and the intimacy of marriage? NO! They will be still the sons and daughters begotten unto God (The Father). But they will not be able to have sexual intercourse or sexual relations. And the knowledge they once were able and cast it aside will, Yes, be a great part of the effort to gnash their immortal teeth in Anguish cries. They will have life, and opportunity, just not in the area of Sex, or the opportunity and joy of The Infinite and Eternal Family of God and gods. They did not believe, did not want and would not obey. There is consequence for those attitudes, choices and actions. This is in part one of those Consequences!!

    Q#4 Is it silly doctrine we should jettison? NO
    It is way beyond that which most can bear—just as with the law and life style of Consecration. The saints of Kirkland, could not live it. The people of God at the time of Moses could not life a higher law, especially about sex—and were barred from the Higher Law the Higher Priesthood power, truths, rights and privileges – hence the Law of Moses. The law of Sarah, or Principle or Plural Marriage is too a just
    Truth proving the dynamic of rejection, ridicule and enraged sentiments of the unbelieving, disbelieving and actual people captive to the Will of The Adversary. Let alone truths of Christ and his need to live all the commandments including that of marriage to be ‘true and faithful in all things’. But that too brings forth the ire and vitriol of nearly all humanity but those who are either meek or true Saints. For none but the meek and lowly of heart and the valiant could want for no jealously rivalry or animosity between sisters; or the need for the Heavenly Gift to be in ea. mind to fulfill the Celestial Law of Marriage given permission only by God by direct command! Again meat is meant for those mature enough to digest it!
    It is not invective or abasement of the youngling – only reality of the science of maturation.

    Q#5 If it is still true, do you think if we emphasized it more, it might motivate members to push harder for the Celestial Kingdom? Yes, but with the caveat—that it is not time yet for powerful doctrine
    Will the 10 Tribes return?—Yes. But we don’t stress it. Will the continents come back into One
    before the heaven (skies & veil) be parted and rolled together to reveal Christ in His Second Coming? Yes And we don’t stress that. Nor do we — the return of the Brass Plates- the Book of the Lamb; the coming of the Prophet of the Laminates destined for great works; the uncovering of the hidden seers; the 2 young men I Israel that will bring Wrath upon the Kingdom of the Devil; the preparations for The New Jerusalem;
    nor many, many, many other great and notable events, persons that come both before and during the Tribulation. If we were ready for those truths, events and personalities—This question of the plight of those fallen from a destiny of Celestial potential would not create a storm of ridicule and wild ideas!! As is easily seen in the comments posted above.

  58. [Part 4] end of comment
    Q#6 Doctrines of Salvation—[a] is most of it safe doctrine we can use in our talks and lessons?
    [b] Is some of it suspect and if it is how do we know what that is?
    [c] Do you think of it as interesting reading not really fiction but not really solid doctrinally?
    [d] How would you describe it? Not really one (1) question!
    Answers–
    [a] No it is not suspect.
    [b] By faith prayer and Revelation is all Truth obtain, confirmed and placed in our spirit
    to join with The Light of Christ. This you should know if you are a member.
    [c] It is not fiction. Since you seem to relegate the Author to some nobody with no real background of Truth—it is not surprising you ask this. Please study his life, his actions, the revelations he was given. He was and is a prophet of God. He is not fallen: and he is not of little faith.
    Your rejection of something you don’t understand and reject—is and always shall be Irrelevant to Truth. Truth is that which was, is and will be. It remains unblemished by ignorance; unsullied by rejection or attack. The light it shines forth is wonderful to those that have eyes to embrace its glory (power). Those that are not able to endure that measure will face that of those left on the earth when the faithful and the unmarked are lifted above the earth—they left behind will hear the pronouncements of The Lord of Lord and King of Kings—and after he tells them much the message that He gave to the living and dead after His Crucifixion (found in 3 Nephi) He will display His Glory and consume the wicked to ash. Those more righteous and separate from Satan’s Kingdom will return to earth and await the events to culminate in the long awaited Millennium.
    All this you, as members of The Church of Jesus Christ should know. If not, bend the knee, humble the heart and bring forth fruit meet for repentance—seek The face of The Lord in submission to Father as
    Jesus more than fully exampled – and by the patience and Will of God you will grow to the point that your Mind will be given answers.

    Yours truly.

    1. Please my dear brothers and sisters
      GET THIS POINT–(1) Not all Truths are given by a Prophet to the Saints
      Joseph received many things Truths Facts
      he was visited by many angels over his mortal life
      And as Nephi and Moses, Brother of Jared, Ether and
      so many, many others RECEIVED things that he was not
      allowed to share by Command of The Lord.
      (2) The Kingdom is Restored with ProphetS not just ONE
      Yes Joseph is the PROPHET of This Dispensation
      but his mortal life had a limit especially as he
      was required to have his blood shed to bring
      Just Punishment upon the Wicked. So he was not
      extended or Renewed or Translated as he was most
      definitely worthy to have received.
      He like Jesus Christ as Abinidi as just 2 examples
      SO THE POINT IS THERE ARE OTHER PROPHETS
      And these Prophets when moved by The Holy Ghost
      speak the Truth and reveal Principles and Facts
      of the Future
      So just because you don’t have a book or article or history or journal of some man or woman who can give you a quote of Joseph Smith about the fate of those in the Telestial and Terrestrial as to their body parts and their passions being Removed DOES NOT NEGATE THAT FACT

      Sex, Marriage, Intercourse Co-Creation (babies in mortality and spirit offspring from a god and goddess) The Powers of Life (as I call it) ARE FOR
      AND ALWAYS HAVE BEEN
      FOR THE CELESTIAL KINGDOM
      (in fact only in the highest portion of the Celestial Kingdom)
      PERIOD

      We have the great and precious opportunity to experience a portion a bit a hint of the Celestial here on earth by the covenant and life as husband and wife- via The New And Everlasting Covenant of Marriage
      Intercourse was set for those that were “legally” as recognized by man
      and “lawfully” as recognized and approved sanctioned and performed BY GOD
      Period. Every other use of sexual intercourse is was and shall be in the future FORBIDDEN

      The Lord Jesus the CHRIST has set forth quite clearly that EVERY
      binding tie relationship on earth is SEVERED cut stopped ENDS
      at death– the only way people stay married is if they have been married by HIS WORD by His Authority by His Pattern and Power — PERIOD
      Every man no matter how much he loves cherishes or has served in the pattern set by The Gospel who fails to have The Holy Spirit of Promise SEAL that UNION made by those with the proper Authority and Commission ENDS
      NO Woman can claim a husband who likewise does comply with EVERY requirement and standard SET BY JESUS CHRIST – IF her marriage was not sealed by The Holy Ghost acting in that capacity relevant to holy matrimony NICHTS NADA NOTHING — she is alone Period Period Period.
      ONLY THOSE THAT ARE WORTHY who failed by not sin on their part in mortality are given spouses before the Resurrection — and then they too have to meet the same strictures commandments and requirements to have those unions blessed and sanctified to last!

      SO GOD YOU THINK is going to give the sacred emblems, tools powers of breasts and labia clitoris and vaginas ovaries and necessary plumbing hormones of pituitary to women and testes penis and passions to both men and women WHO WILL BE IN THE TELESTIAL OR TERRESTRIAL WHERE THEY ARE ETERNALLY ALONE SEPARATE AND UNMARRIED?
      Really ??
      Why – so the terrible ones that raped or abused children or women could have a chance sometime in the long expanse of the eternities to do that again?
      NO God Forbid and IN FACT HE SHALL FORBID– By Making It Impossible

      God giveth and God taketh– and blessed be the Name of The Lord

      For the same situation as to marriage and sex shall exist in the Terrestrial Kingdom– they will not be married or given in marriage
      For they believed in God and kept his commandments as to the level the station and the glory of the Moon the choice to follow Christ– but only to a level not with all their hearts not with perfect faith in Christ
      They deluded themselves that attending church and going to the Temple even once a month or everyday was enough– they would not offer their whole souls to God– they would seek to see the Savior’s life and then do the works they had seen him do– for they presupposed that command by Christ was what only to the people in Bountiful (they did not live in Jerusalem) and if he meant those few days he visited America—WHAT OF US hundreds and hundreds of years after His Visit to the Nephites in the Land of Bountiful– IS THAT COMMAND to do the works ye have seen me do — only for those people or only for those that happened to be in the land of Israel
      I SAY UNTO NO

      His commands (save those for a particular man like Joseph to Restore the Church or John the Baptist to prepare the way and to baptize The Lord) All the Commands that are not specific to a person tribe people or time frame – ARE TO ALL OF US
      And I testify as a child of God and Member of God’s People
      that particular command is valid for all his children
      and those who in unbelief (i do not believe) or in disbelief (i will not believe)
      or the apostate (i reject and hate and will destroy that belief)
      ALL THOSE who do not See the Savior’s Life and thereby open the gate to faith and trial to KNOW THE SAVIOR will not Know Him and be Known of Him
      They will be cast out from the Door Gate Veil to the Celestial Realm
      And the Keeper of that Gate is The Holy One of Israel and He employeth no servant there– and He cannot be deceived.

      NO my dear brother and sister — those who do not Know Jesus have not seen him face to face — who are not ‘eye witness’ will not enter into His Kingdom and thereby have Celestial Life and the chance for Celestial lives (children by their union sex with a married husband and married wife)
      And therefore those in the Telestial and in the Terrestrial will not have that blessing — and God who gave you a chance to see what it might be like IF Only a tiny portion of that joy and bliss of sexual union passion and its practice – will have those passions removed and they shall be as they were before puberty without the desire and passion for sex. And they will be as little children having no ability for making and having babies — Only GOD will protect the sanctity of that power and those organs and that Celestial Condition– for He who can heal the leper in a flash; restore the withered hand or renew the body of Elizabeth to bear a baby in a brand new womb in a renewed body — He would could raise Lazarus (creating new flesh for the dead and necrotic tissues organs and fluids) in a flash by His COMMAND
      He Shall by His Command and by His Power in a blink of an eye
      REMOVE the organs for the power of life And HE SHALL
      REMOVE the passions from the mind and being of men and women
      Forever after their once shapely forms will be smooth and unbroken save a small opening to urinate (present time size men 6 millimeters women 7 millimeters) That’s it and rectums Nothing else not labia for women not features for men — NICHTS NADA ZIP

      And why would God place in harm’s way to the wicked to the terrible ones
      man or woman to abuse to make ugly or pervert– they had their chance in mortality to honor that power to be chaste to use it in marriage alone
      and bring forth children– not to debase it in fornication or being nasty and lascivious or pervert it in myriads of ways NO
      GOD is a God of ORDER
      And God is a God that loves his precious daughters even in The Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms– he will not let them be used as fodder for the base the crass the cruel and the thoughtless or lust filled
      So HE will remove the Lust and he will remove the possibility of Sin
      for that special and Celestial feature for men and women

      And do not disabuse yourself with the notion that because you can’t believe this could be or God would do Such– THAT WILL NOT CHANGE THE FUTURE

      Let me be blunt SEX IS CELESTIAL in its conception and fulfillment
      Only the Celestial will have Sex and only in The Celestial Kingdom will this great blessing be possible.

      Pretty Good reason for you to make your lives straight- seek in humility and obedience and submission to Follow Christ
      Seek to see His life and then do the works you have seen Him Do!
      Then will God the Father by His Will and at His Pleasure given the Command and have The Holy Ghost seal you to that man or woman and you can have the chance to use EFFORT and seek for the Glory and blessing of The Celestial

      You think that you become a God just on a lark
      or with the effort you give a crossword puzzle
      or the effort you give your employer
      or the effort you give or gave to raise your children
      or be honest with your fellow men when your pressed to witness the Truth
      Becoming a GOD takes the effort of someone who wants to BE A GOD

      It was never impossible — such is not God’s Way
      But he certainly is not going to grant the power to fly through the sky without a spaceship or create worlds set them into orbits
      arrange and control suns and other planets and galaxies
      let alone the tiny power to form or destroy mountains and oceans
      TO JUST ANYONE- anyone who might get a notion a secret plan in their secret heart to DEPOSE GOD and Usurp power to destroy Elohim and be a Tyrant over chunks of the Eternities

      God’s have the Power and Dominion of GODS
      Why, oh why, oh why! would he give the sacred power to people entire worlds and create other gods to people who were not worthy of such– who would protect that which is SACRED — SEX to just anyone?

      IF YOU LIKE LOVE OR TREASURE your boy and desire to have that power that feeling that happiness and taste of Joy that comes with the blessings of sexuality– then LIVE unto God — lebe das leben Gottes —
      Viva la Vida de Dios
      Live the life of God– as best you can day to day moment to moment
      Lay aside you unbelief and use the words of eternal life and joy of the saints and the manifestations of the Power of God to embolden you to inspire you to motivate you as it did Enos and Abraham and all the holy ones to Use dynamic and diligent Faith unto parting the veil of unbelief and speak with God – receive a remission of your sins — and NOT STOP but cast your minds to your loved ones and seek in faith for their welfare and then when you have poured out your whole soul and receive you answer DO NOT STOP
      for those that are fallen who chose Jehovah and came to earth — they need you (I’m not talking about evil– they are sealed up to destruction per God’s Will and timetable– but the unbelieving and disbelieving and some of the wicked not so far gone they cannot be shaken or have the fear of God awaken them to shame contrition and faith to genuine repentance and obedience) THOSE need you and if you stop you will not follow the Sacred Pattern– So if you follow — truly Follow Christ and his precious wonderful faith filled examples — you can have your full potential activated and open to you.

      When you Know — truly know the Savior and can be cleansed every whit and be sanctified and sealed up to Eternal Life– the Joy and blessing of Sex the Sex which is Celestial can and shall be yours–
      All based on the commands and patterns set and immovable
      from Eternity to all Eternity.

      For the Plan and Glory of God is the Immortality and Eternal Life of Man
      And each man and woman can have sex- but on His Terms His Rules
      It is a gift of God
      Stop pretending that what God gives He CANNOT TAKE AWAY

      for pretending gets you only fantasy that evaporates in the Sun of DAY
      I bear my testimony that God lives and the powers of life are sacred
      You can achieve The Godhead’s Plan if you are willing to give up your mortal life and your mortal limited views steeped in the false traditions of men and the corrupt shepherds that hat fallen prey to sin
      The Jews forgot and thought the scriptures alone were salvation
      “in them ye think ye have Eternal Life — and they are they which testify of Me”
      You want to be like Jesus and have a wife and have sex – then know Jesus face to face and Joy in HIS Work and HIS Glory
      and love the boys and girls men and women that he viewed in life and experienced their lives feelings and trials and afflictions illnesses and deaths and Then later in the Garden suffered for them each one– for their sins and the consequences and effects of every one of their sins. And when he had done that from Adam to the last boy or girl that will be born on this planet — He then did the same Atonement for sin for every single man and woman on EACH and EVERY Other earth / planet He had Created as Jehovah before he came to earth. And This is the man we worship and Seek to follow.
      And after His Resurrection He no longer must only view or suffer HE NOW is able freed by the constricts of The Order of Heaven and Can ACT to help to intervene based on Faith and need and the Will of The Father and the Joy he has to lift to save, to bless to protect and yes to destroy the wicked. And when He on Judgment Day says to both the wicked and later to the Righteous “inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of these…. ye have done it unto ME” HE IS NOT SPEAKING METAPHORICALLY or symbolically or figuratively for He did see before and then in the Garden each life. And afterwards after He Rose and gained an immortal never-die body of flesh and bones
      to carry on the remainder of His Work The Work His Father gave to Him to do-
      and This Man KNOWS YOU AND I thrice over
      and He will not tolerate those that abuse you
      for He felt what you experienced INTIMATELY.

      And the joy and aid and comfort and care and love you showed each of those he saw,
      he suffered for and He later sought to aid, comfort or bless or curse as the need and Justice demands –
      each we bless –He knows — for He was/is there. OF this You can be sure.
      As sure as you live,
      and as sure as God lives.
      And so if you wish to have the greatest blessing of all — Eternal lives
      to crown Eternal Life in the presence of the Godhead– then Do His Work
      Live a life mirrored to His

      I am your friend and brother
      I am speaking the truth hard one and treasured

      yours truly

      ps Those that will be what I personally call the ‘Anguished Androgyny’
      will be those that weep and wail and gnash their teeth.
      And yes those of the Terrestrial who by apathy fail to learn
      the meets and bounds for sex in The Celestial Kingdom
      will too have that anguish!
      An anguish and misery that could have been avoided if they
      but had faith and worked to overcome the natural man and
      natural woman and seek with all their hearts, might mind & strength
      The same price for all — your all
      Christ had to give his all- do expect the best for any less?

  59. Rational Thinker

    Thanks for putting so much thought and effort into your answer. You may want to just simplify it a bit though 🙂

  60. Did anyone stop to pray to God what the Prophet JFS was actually stating? Anyone have the Holy Ghost testify to them, that there is no castration or genitalia taken away in the lower glories and kingdoms, but only the ability to reproduce, simply being Sterile. Pray about it. Have a nice day. 🙂

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